[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
zompist bboard • View topic - Languages without allophony

zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:54 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:06 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:35 pm
Posts: 492
Location: Michigan, USA
All right, so the title's deliberately evocative--I know that all languages have some degree of allophony. What I'm really interested in is languages that have the least allophony. I know languages with very small phoneme inventories can have some crazy allophones (you know, like Pirahã apparently having [k] as an allophone for /hi/). Does the opposite hold true--do languages with very large phoneme inventories have very little allophony? For example, what kind of allophony does Ubykh or !Xóõ have? (I know Ubykh has a lot of vowel allophony, but among the consonants, at least.) And are there other factors that can impact the amount of allophony a language has, aside from just the size of the phoneme inventory?

_________________
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:10 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:34 am
Posts: 838
Location: The North
I think languages with (C)V syllables, particularly the Polynesian and Bantu languages, would have very little allophony as there are fewer environments to influence the consonants.

_________________


First known on here as Karero


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:36 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:15 pm
Posts: 1418


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:25 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US
A common one is /t/ > [s] before /i(ː)/.

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:27 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:05 pm
Posts: 387


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:09 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
There are probably two contrary processes here.

Languages with small inventories will have plenty of allophony, as sounds spread out to fill the space: you can have /w/ be [v] in some places, or /t/ be [s] in others because there are few other phonemes for these ones to 'compete' with for space.

Languages with large inventories should have less allophony. But there's a problem.

Languages with large inventories tend to be languages with complex phonotactics. And complicated phonotactics will also probably lead to plenty of allophony, because the phonemes can be places in a wider array of contexts.

[Complex phonotactics produce lots of allophony, which is one reason why they end up with large consonant inventories, as the conditioning environments for that allophony are lost!]

So I would suspect that on average you'd find the narrowest range of allophony among nondescript languages with mid-sized inventories.

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 12:18 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:34 am
Posts: 838
Location: The North

_________________


First known on here as Karero


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 12:32 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:21 am
Posts: 306
Location: Cymru
As far as I know the only allophones Welsh has are the devoiced nasals. I could be wrong though.

_________________
My conlangery Twitter:
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:49 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:10 am
Posts: 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:58 pm 
Sanci
Sanci
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:04 pm
Posts: 58


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 2:26 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:05 pm
Posts: 387


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 3:41 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:53 pm 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den
Pedantic but perhaps important note: all languages have allophony, because phones are analog, and phonemes are discrete. Say the same sound a hundred times and you'll get a little cloud in your feature space.

Plus, each context modifies the sounds. k is different before o or u, n is different initially and finally. A word will sound different in quick speech. Plus there's all the tiny differences that allow you to recognize individual voices.

Whether or not the variation gets reported in a grammar may well depend on the ear, the thoroughness, and the background of the grammarian.

Snarky response: what about Esperanto? Its spelling is claimed to be "phonetic", so technically it has no allophony...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:17 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 437
Location: Davis, CA

_________________
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:14 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:40 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:04 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Posts: 3687
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:25 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
re: Japanese, some languages (e.g. O'odham) had all high vowels condition palatalization

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:09 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:34 pm
Posts: 1606
Location: Stockholm
I think Finnish has very little allophonic variation. The only major things I can come up with are /n/ having the allophones [m n ŋ] and /h/ with several allophones.

_________________

My most recent quiz:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:20 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea
How would you define "major" allophonic variation?

Some cases of allophony in Finnish include:
• prosody-related variation in length (e.g. short vowels become half-long at the end of a short trochaic stress group)
• variation between dentals and alveolars (probably speaker-dependant, but e.g. I have fairly systematically /rt̪/ → [rt͇])
• /sr/ → [sɹ]
• usual combinary effects with labialization or palatalization (/ju/ → [ɥu], /li/ → [lʲi])
• some degree of free variation in mid vowel height (I typically have [e ø̞ ɔ] for /e ö o/)
• some vowel-harmony-related issues (/e/ → [e̠] when back-harmonic)
• relatively free variation /v/ → [ʋ ~ v]
• variation in number of contacts in /r/ (i.e. [ɾ ~ ɾɾ ~ ɾɾɾ ~ …])

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:43 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:34 pm
Posts: 1606
Location: Stockholm

_________________

My most recent quiz:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:40 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1139

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:08 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
I wouldn't go that far - native speakers can sometimes be aware of allophony. Allophones sometimes get their own letters, for instance. But it's true that speakers are often not aware of allophony, sometimes even if they're told about it. I've had people flat out refuse to believe there's a difference between aspirated and unaspirated voiceless stops in English, for instance.

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:07 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea
I would presume that second-language learning informs people's understanding of their native languages' allophony at least somewhat.

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:30 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1139

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group