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As far as I can tell, no language has a coverall term for both uncles and aunts. This includes languages with coverall terms for siblings (not just English siblings, but also Malay, which distinguishes siblings by birth order primarily and not by gender), niblings, parents, grandparents, etc. Does anyone know why this is?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Firstly, I doubt the validity of claiming sibling and nibling as English. The first time I encountered the word nibling was in the OP. I first encountered sibling in books on genetics, and it is not difficult to find dictionaries that omit it. It is possible that the word has become much more common in my lifetime. I would therefore hesitate to use them in analysing the structure of robust kinship terminology in the English language.

Secondly, I am not sure on what basis you claim Malay has a cover term for 'brothers and sisters'. Does it has a cover term that includes siblings of both sexes, or are you simply saying that it does not normally distinguishes elder and younger rather than male and female. In the latter case I can also refer you to the New Guinea habit of usually classifying siblings into same sex siblings and different sex siblings.

As I don't fully understand you, I wonder if the Siamese system may be of interest to you. The three distinctions of paternal v. maternal, male v. female and elder v. younger are partially covered by four terms:

lung 'elder brother of a parent'
pâa 'elder sister of a parent'
aa 'younger sibling of the father'
náa 'younger sibling of the mother'

These terms are extended to other members of the senior generation, so a mother's female friends will be pâa X or náa X depending on whether they are older or younger than her.

The Siamese system has undergone simplification; there is an archaic word aao meaning 'younger brother of the father', in contrast with which aa would just mean 'younger sister of the father'.

I suspect the lack of a cover term relating to all uncles and aunts may relate to the actual usefulness of such a word. Are you likely to need a word that would cover all uncles and aunts but exclude grandparents?

I think he's referring to Malay/Indonesian saudara, which means 'brother or sister'.

I know this isn't what you asked, Alon, but in Spanish you can use tíos to mean "aunt(s) and uncle(s)". ("Mis tíos han llegado.")

Edit: I forgot that in writing you can have "tí@" = "aunt or uncle"! Can't say it out loud though.

I have never heard the term "nibling" before, and apparently it is an uncommon neologism for "niece or nephew".

zompist wrote:I think he's referring to Malay/Indonesian saudara, which means 'brother or sister'.

I know this isn't what you asked, Alon, but in Spanish you can use tíos to mean "aunt(s) and uncle(s)". ("Mis tíos han llegado.")

The words are highly parallel. At one level, there's a common substantivised adjective, with obligatory marking of the sex of the referent (Sanskrit sodar-a,-ī 'uterine sibling'), but from what Zompist is saying, the use of the explicitly feminine form for 'sister' is optional in Malay. There's a similar pattern in the formal Thai words for child (= 'sprog'), where bùt (< Sanskrit putra) can be used for either ɡender, with the feminine form bùttrii beinɡ available to mean 'daughter'. I'm assuming there isn't some tendency in Malay for saudari to be used for an elder sister, following the primary contrast in the native Malay words of 'elder brother' v. 'elder sister' v. 'younger sibling'.

Richard W wrote: I first encountered sibling in books on genetics, and it is not difficult to find dictionaries that omit it. It is possible that the word has become much more common in my lifetime.

I think that's the first time I've encountered the idea that it isn't a completely common word. I guess I don't use it every day, but... every month? Would be much more if I more frequently encountered situations to use it in (doesn't help that I only have one sibling myself, so the utility of the word is reduced for me). It's the standard word for the meaning I've seen... well, everywhere. Do you really use "brother and/or sister" instead?

This is also the first time i've learnt that 'sibling' was only 'revived' a century ago. I always assumed it was old, core vocabulary.

Salmoneus wrote:

Richard W wrote: I first encountered sibling in books on genetics, and it is not difficult to find dictionaries that omit it. It is possible that the word has become much more common in my lifetime.

I think that's the first time I've encountered the idea that it isn't a completely common word. I guess I don't use it every day, but... every month? Would be much more if I more frequently encountered situations to use it in (doesn't help that I only have one sibling myself, so the utility of the word is reduced for me). It's the standard word for the meaning I've seen... well, everywhere. Do you really use "brother and/or sister" instead?

This is also the first time i've learnt that 'sibling' was only 'revived' a century ago. I always assumed it was old, core vocabulary.

Same here. I'd never heard the word sib until I developed an interest in anthropology, but I've certainly used the word sibling my entire life--despite being an only child.

Neat etymological fact: sibling is cognate to gossip. (The OE meaning was 'relative'; gossip < godparent)

Salmoneus wrote:I think that's the first time I've encountered the idea that it isn't a completely common word. I guess I don't use it every day, but... every month? Would be much more if I more frequently encountered situations to use it in (doesn't help that I only have one sibling myself, so the utility of the word is reduced for me). It's the standard word for the meaning I've seen... well, everywhere. Do you really use "brother and/or sister" instead?

I have a tendency to talk like a book, but I would still ask, "Do you have any brothers or sisters?" rather than "Do you have any siblings?" A quick look at the result of googling the word generally came up with pages with a vaguely academic or technical flavour. I think a good comment is given by the Hampshire CC web page on sibling policy for school admissions. The first use of the word 'sibling' in plain text is glossed as 'brother or sister' - clearly they expect there to be parents who do not readily understand the word.

As for dictionaries:

• Collins English Gem Dictionary (1963) has neither sib nor sibling. It's only a pocket-sized pocket dictionary.
• The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology (1966) has sib 'related by blood, now (exc. dial.) spec. of canaries', and does not have sibling at all.
• Both the Pocket Oxford Dictionary (1969) and Chamber's Twentieth Century Dictionary (1959) note sib as a predominantly Scottish word and give sibling as a derivative. This may fit in a poacher's pocket, but it certainly won't fit in a shirt pocket.
• Se-ed's Modern English-Thai Dictionary (1998) does have sibling, but besides the translations as elder/younger brother/sister also has the old, wider meaning 'kinsman'. It does not have sib.

Unsurprisingly to my mind, neither sib nor sibling may be found in the Langenscheidt's Universal Dictionary Polish (2006), which claims '35,000 references'.

If the word sibling is now a part of the 'core' vocabulary of English, I think there are a good many native speakers with obsolete core vocabularies, and dictionaries are having to catch up.

Salmoneus wrote:It's the standard word for the meaning I've seen... well, everywhere.

Not all meanings have words.

In present-day English, for me, the difference between sibling and brother or sister is one of register, i.e. sibling is higher register than brother or sister, just like children is higher register than kids. I would find it quite odd if an official document, e.g., spoke of "brother or sister", as to me sibling is the standard term to use in higher registers.

Of course sibling is less common than the gendered terms, and nibling is still obscure. I bring these up because in some languages there do exist common unisex words for sibling: Malay has adik for a younger sibling. However, I don't know of unisex words for a parent's sibling; the Thai examples of fathers' and mothers' younger siblings are the closest I've seen so far.

Swedish may have a cover term for uncles and aunts: föräldrasyskon. It's not a common word, but I did find some uses of it (including in a Wikipedia article) and it basically fits within the Swedish system of kinship terms.

Swedish uses a productive system of forming complex kinship terms through compounding of more basic relations. The components may be phonologically reduced but the system is still transparent:

"mormor" (mother-mother) = 'maternal grandmother'
"moster" (mother-sister) = 'maternal aunt'
"farbror" (father-brother) = 'paternal uncle'
"morfärälder" (mother-parent) = 'maternal grandparent'
"barnbarn" (child-child) = 'grandchild'
"syskonbarn" (sibling-child) = 'nephew or niece (nibling)'
"systerson" (sister-son) = 'sororal nephew'
"farfars farfars far" (father-father's father-father's father) = paternal great-great-great-grandfather
etc.

Swedish tends to distinguish paternal and maternal relations, as well as fraternal and sororal relations. You would normally specify if someone is your "mormor" (maternal grandmother) or "farmor" (paternal grandmother), your "brorson" (fraternal nephew) or your "systerson" (sororal nephew). However, the words "syskon" (sibling), "förälder" (parent) and "barn" (child) can be used to form cover terms. "Barnbarn" (child-children = grandchildren), "farföräldrar" (father-parents = father's parents) and "morföräldrar" (mother-parents = mother's parents) are very common terms (probably more common in the plural). "Syskonbarn" (sibling-children = 'niblings') is also reasonably common (as common as you would expect this term to be, and more common than English "nibling"). "Syskonskon" (sibling-son = 'nephew') and "synskondotter" (sibling-daughter = 'niece') were surprisingly common when I Googled for them. Many of the hits may actually have been translations from other languages, where there is an uncertainty what relationship is intended.

However, for some reason it's rare to put "förälder" (parent) in the first slot and to put "syskon" (sibling) in the second. "Barnsyskon" (child-sibling) and "syskonsyskon" (sibling-sibling) might not make much sense, but "morsyskon" (mother-sibling) and "farsyskon" (father-sibling) could have some use. While I did get some hits for them on Google, they are very rare. They don't sound that odd to my ears, though, so perhaps they're just not that useful.

The fact that "förälder" is rare in the first slot is a bit puzzling, actually. English "grandparents" would normally be translated as "mor- och farföräldrar" (mother- and father-parents). The word "föräldraförälder" (parent-parent) would fit into the system, and be quite useful, but for some reason, it's not that common (unlike "barnbarn"). It's not completely non-existent, though. I did a Google-search for "föräldraförälder", as well as the variant "förälderförälder" and their declined forms, and I probably got less than 50 hits in total, mostly from blogs and forums.

So "föräldrasyskon" (parent-sibling) combines two terms that, for some reason, are rare in that particular slot. But I would still say that it fits into the system and it would be understood by a Swedish speaker. I did get some hits on Google for "föräldrasyskon" and the variant "föräldersyskon", so the word is not completely non-existent but it is certainly rare.

The first hit was actually from the Swedish Wikipedia article on the actress Kate Mara:
"hon har 22 föräldrasyskon och 40 kusiner"
'she has 22 aunts and uncles and 40 cousins'
(the French loanword "kusin" is the common word for "cousin")

Edit: It should be noted that since Swedish lacks a common term for aunt and uncle (without specifying if it's a paternal or maternal relationship), it may actually be tricky to translate "she has 22 aunts and uncles and 40 cousins" into Swedish without using the term "föräldrasyskon". "Hon har 22 morbröder, farbröder, mostrar och fastrar, och 40 kusiner" sounds a bit clumsy. It's quite possible that many native Swedish speaker would spontaneously use the word "föräldrasyskon" in this context.

There are the French loanwords "onkel" (uncle) and "tant" (aunt) but they are rare (especially "onkel") and dated. If they are used, it is often in an extended sense for any old person (especially "tant"), and especially of an old friend of the family. The native word "farbror" (father-brother = paternal uncle) can also be used for any old male person, as a male equivalent of "tant".

Richard W wrote:

Salmoneus wrote:I think that's the first time I've encountered the idea that it isn't a completely common word. I guess I don't use it every day, but... every month? Would be much more if I more frequently encountered situations to use it in (doesn't help that I only have one sibling myself, so the utility of the word is reduced for me). It's the standard word for the meaning I've seen... well, everywhere. Do you really use "brother and/or sister" instead?

I have a tendency to talk like a book, but I would still ask, "Do you have any brothers or sisters?" rather than "Do you have any siblings?"

[...]

If the word sibling is now a part of the 'core' vocabulary of English, I think there are a good many native speakers with obsolete core vocabularies, and dictionaries are having to catch up.

I remember being taught by my English teacher (this may have been the second or third year of primary School in Sweden) to ask "Do you have any brothers or sisters?", and the teacher telling us that English didn't have a word for "syskon". Only much later did I encounter the word "sibling".

In Swedish, "syskon" (sibling) is definitely part of the "core" vocabulary. If you want to ask someone if they have any siblings, you would normally phrase the question as "har du några syskon?" (do you have any siblings?). Asking "har du några bröder eller systrar?" (do you have any brothers or sisters?) sounds a bit awkward.

Travis B. wrote:I would find it quite odd if an official document, e.g., spoke of "brother or sister", as to me sibling is the standard term to use in higher registers.

It's not easy to test this claim about official practice, but I had a go. The first case I found where I could apply this test was an application form for 'developed vetting'. Candidates with foreign backgrounds are not welcome to fill this form in - it's for clearance to TOP SECRET and the like. Question 11 is entitled ' Details About Your First Brother or Sister', although 'sibling' would be a lot snappier. The form does take care to expand on the definition of 'brother or sister' - "In addition to full brothers and sisters, please include half and step-brothers, half and step-sisters, and adopted brothers or sisters."

The gender-neutral terms are used for "Details of other Parents, Adoptive Parents, Foster Parents, Step-Parents or Legal Guardians".

Are Spanish hermano 'brother/sister' and 'tio' 'uncle/aunt' unisex lexemes with obligatory agreement in form for natural gender? I'm inclined to think that they are.

Richard W wrote:Are Spanish hermano 'brother/sister' and 'tio' 'uncle/aunt' unisex lexemes with obligatory agreement in form for natural gender? I'm inclined to think that they are.

They are in the singular, but not in the plural. ¿Tienes hermanos? 'Do you have any brothers or sisters?'

Serafín wrote:

Richard W wrote:Are Spanish hermano 'brother/sister' and 'tio' 'uncle/aunt' unisex lexemes with obligatory agreement in form for natural gender? I'm inclined to think that they are.

They are in the singular, but not in the plural. ¿Tienes hermanos? 'Do you have any brothers or sisters?'

they do show (natural) gender in the plural; masculine plurals (of most human nouns) are just ambiguous between all-male groups, mixed male-female groups, essentially any group where the speaker is not presuming all the individuals are female. assuming the roots are /erman-/ and /ti-/, the root is unisex, and the noun theme vowel shows gender. (sorry for the nitpick)

It looks like many languages have cover terms in the plural (english parents, siblings(*)) while, unlike English, they less often have them (or rarely use them) in the singular. In German, there are Eltern "parents" (= mother and father) and Geschwister "siblings" (= brothers and sisters), for which there is no good equivalent singular cover term. For (singular) "parent", there is Elternteil, but this is mostly used in officialese and in professional contexts by educators etc. Singular Geschwister also exists, in similar contexts like Elternteil, but sounds even more weird. The diminutive Geschwisterchen is used in everyday speech when talking about a sibling whose sex isn't known, especially in case of unborn children (e.g. asking the future siblings of an unborn baby Freust du dich, dass du bald ein Geschwisterchen bekommst? "Are you looking forward to having a sibling soon?").
(*) sibling was not a word I've learnt at school, I encountered it first time in the 90s when reading a fantasy novel, and several times after that. My (non-native) impression is that it's not a frequent word, but still a part of the lexicon that can be used in middle-to-low-brow literature and is understood and used outside of officialese and professional-speak.

Icelandic doesn't distinguish aunts from nieces or cousins, or uncles from nephews or cousins, using frænka for the former and frændi for all the latter. You can say frændfólk to cover a group of relatives that fall into these categories.

In order to be specific, Icelandic has a productive system like the one Valdeut explained above in Swedish. So you can say e.g. móðurbróðir = mother's brother = maternal uncle. You could also say móðursystkin = mother's siblings (although I haven't heard that very often) to refer to your aunts and uncles on your mother's side.

Unlike English, the spouses of your aunts and uncles are not considered your aunts and uncles in Iceland(ic) and there is no term for their relationship to ego except saying eiginmaður/eiginkona frænda/frænku minnar = husband/wife of my uncle/aunt.

It's funny, out of the 6 anthropological kinship systems, Icelandic doesn't match any of them, but I suppose it's a kind of variant of Eskimo kinship.

Richard W wrote:I first encountered sibling in books on genetics, and it is not difficult to find dictionaries that omit it. It is possible that the word has become much more common in my lifetime. I would therefore hesitate to use them in analysing the structure of robust kinship terminology in the English language.

How old are you? To me, sibling is a completely normal word, and I hear it often.

Richard W wrote:As I don't fully understand you, I wonder if the Siamese system may be of interest to you.

Ah. I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian Consulate in Siam by aeromail.