"Without" in languages without prepositions

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alice
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"Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by alice »

How do languages without prepositions express "without" as the opposite of "with", in either its instrumental or comitative (?) senses?
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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by Frislander »

alice wrote:How do languages without prepositions express "without" as the opposite of "with", in either its instrumental or comitative (?) senses?
Finnish has the abessive case in -tta (talotta without (a/the) house)

With Kaita I wanted to use verbs for lots of concepts, such as location, so I just use the verb núka "to lack" in (kind of) relative clause structure.

kénakííywaan kananúkaan nakayta
ké-na-kííywa-:n ka-na-núka-:n na-kayta
ANT-1.SUB-leave-PRF I-1.SUB-lack-PRF 1-person
I left without my friend

There probably are natlangs which do this, but I can't immediately think of one offhand.

I bet that in the Pacific Northwest and in Eskimo-Aleut they have lexical suffixes/postbases for it.
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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by Burke »

English sort of does this, but you risk some lexical shifts sometimes. Suffixes like -less or -free are frequent. We could say a man is emotionless or without emotion. We often call drinks sugar-free or baked goods gluten-free when without sugar or without gluten would be roughly equivalent. Chinese in general can do this with the prefix 無-, but like English there's shifts sometimes to be aware of.

Not sure how to do frislander's without a friend one, because leaving without a friend is different from leaving friendless. The second implies a loss of friends while the first implies action done alone.
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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by Imralu »

Turkish uses the suffix -s4z (realised as -siz, -sız, -süz, -suz, depending on vowel harmony) which is basically like "-less", "-free" and "without". It's very freely applied and even works with pronouns:

Sensizim.
sen
2s
-s4z
-without
-(y)4m
-COP.PRES.1s

"I am without you."
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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by Ser »

alice wrote:How do languages without prepositions express "without" as the opposite of "with", in either its instrumental or comitative (?) senses?
Mandarin Chinese manages using 没有 mei2 you3 'not have'. Note that although Mandarin regularly uses coverbs in a serial verb construction, 没有 mei2you3 is not a coverb, but rather is used as the main verb of a clause. 没有 mei2you3 is therefore typically found in a subordinate clause, often a conditional protasis (marked with 如果 ru2guo3 'if' or just by mere juxtaposition) or a relative clause. Let's look at some examples (ripped off Internet sources):

没有他我们照样能成功。
mei2 you3 ta1 wo3men zhao4yang4 neng2 cheng2gong1
not have 3SG 1PL nonetheless can succeed
(literally: "[even if we] don't have him, we can nonetheless succeed")
'We can succeed without him.'
(This is not a serial verb construction as the subject is found in the middle, but a sentence with a condition.)

没有妒忌就没有爱情。
mei2 you3 du4ji4 jiu4 mei2 you3 ai4qing2
not have jealousy then not have love
(literally: "[if] there is not jealousy, then there is not love")
'Love is never without jealousy.'
(Conditions are often marked with a simple 就 jiu4 'then' in the main clause. It's optional though.)

他是一个没有任何体谅心的人。
ta1 shi4 yi1 ge mei2 you3 ren4he2 ti3liang4 xin1 de ren2
3SG be one CL not have any empathize heart REL person
(literally: "he is a person that does not have any empathizing heart")
'He was a man without any feeling.'
(CL = noun classifier, REL = relativizer)

EDIT: You can also use the equivalent of -less adjectives as Burke says of course.

他是一个无畏的人。
ta1 shi4 yi1 ge wu2wei4 de ren2
3SG be one CL fearless REL person
(literally: "he is a person that is fearless")
'He is a man without fear.'
Burke wrote:Not sure how to do frislander's without a friend one, because leaving without a friend is different from leaving friendless. The second implies a loss of friends while the first implies action done alone.
I thought Mandarin would use something like this for 'I left without my friend':

我没有我的朋友就走了。
wo3 mei2 you3 wo3 de peng2you jiu4 zou3 le
1SG not have 1SG POSS friend then walk.away PRF
(literally: "I don't have my friend, then I walked away")
(Note: this is not a sentence with a condition, but rather has some sort of coordination.)

But looking up similar sentences in some sources, it seems Mandarin, sometimes at least, uses 甩下 shuai3-xia4 'throw/fling-down' or 撇下 pie1-xia4 'throw-down' for this context.

我撇下我的朋友就走了。
wo3 pie1-xia4 wo3 de peng2you jiu4 zou3 le
1SG throw-down 1SG POSS friend then walk.away PRF
(literally: "I throw down my friend, then I walked away.")

I don't know how informal 甩下 shuai3-xia4 or 撇下 pie1-xia4 are. Can any of our Mandarin L1 speakers comment on the sentences above?
Last edited by Ser on Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by linguoboy »

Korean uses deverbal derivations from the verb of nonexistence /eps.ta/. In adverbial use, a derivation with the adverbial suffix /(h)i/:

짚 없이는 벽돌을 만들 수 없다.
/ciph eps.i nun pyektol ul mantu.lq swu eps.ta/
straw not.exist-ADV TOP brick ACC make-PROSP ability not.exist-DECL
"You can't[*] make bricks without straw."

and, in attributive use, a derivation with the processive verb suffix /nun/[**]:

가시 없는 장미는 없다.
/kasi eps.nun cangmi nun eps.ta/
thorn not.exist-PROC rose TOP not.exist-DECL
"Every rose has its thorn." (Lit. "A rose without a thorn does not exist.")


[*] Note that the Korean idiom for "can" is literally "ability [to do X] exists"
[**] Cf. 사철 피는 장미 /saqchel phi.nun cangmi/ "four season blooming rose" = "a rose that blooms year-round"

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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by clawgrip »

In Japanese, generally the negative of one of the locational copulas is used, and it is subordinated in various ways:

There is a specific verb for "leave without; leave behind", so that is not a good example:
友達を取り残した。
Tomodachi o torinokoshita.

friend ACC leave.behind-PST
I left without my friend. ("I left my friend behind.")

It is often put into the negative adverbial -nakute form:
Here it is used with mo "also; even" to give a sense of "regardless":
彼がいなくても成功できる。
Kare ga inakute mo seikō dekiru.

3.MASC NOM LOC.COP.ANIM-NEG-ADV even success can.do
We can succeed without him. ("He not even being here, (we) can succeed.")

Here it is used with to, meaning in this case something like "whenever":
松葉杖がないと立てない。
Matsubatsue ga nai to tatenai.

crutch NOM LOC.COP.NEG then stand-POT-NEG
He cannot stand without crutches. ("Whenever crutches don't exist, he cannot stand.")

Sometimes it becomes a relative clause:
彼は恐怖のない人間だ。
Kare wa kyōfu no nai ningen da.

3.MASC TOP fear NOM LOC.COP.NEG human COP
He is a man without fear. ("He is a person (for whom) fear does not exist.")

Sometimes this relative clause can be added to mama "the current state as-is" plus the instrumental marker de:
信じられる人がいないままで人は生きていけるのでしょうか。
Shinjirareru hito ga inai mama de hito wa ikite ikeru no deshō ka.

believe-POST person NOM LOC.COP-NEG state INST person TOP live-ADV go-POT N SPEC.POL Q
"Can a person survive without anyone they can trust?" ("Can a person live by the state of a person (they) can trust not existing?")

For a negative instrumental, the adjectival noun nashi meaning "not existing" plus the instrumental de can be used:

予約なしで行けた。
Yoyaku nashi de iketa.

reservation not.existing INST go-POT-PST
We were able to go without a reservation. ("We were able to go by reservation not existing.")

When "without" is used with a verb, the other type of negative adverbial form -naide or -zu ni:

何も考えないでできた。
Nani mo kangaenaide dekita.

what even think-NEG-ADV can.do-PST
or
何も考えずにできた。
Nani mo kangaezu ni dekita.

what even think-NEG ADV can.do-PST
I did it without thinking. ("Not thinking also what (I) was able to do it.")

失敗せずに痩せる。
Shippai sezu ni yaseru.

failure do.NEG ADV slim.down
(I will) lose weight without failing. ("Not failing, I will lose weight."

This can also be used for when you don't have objects:
鍵を持たずに出てしまった。
Kagi o motazu ni dete shimatta.

key ACC hold-NEG ADV go.out-ADV put.away-PST
I left without my keys (unfortunately). ("Not holding my keys, I left." (don't worry about the put.away thing, it is idiomatic and unrelated to "without").

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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by hwhatting »

Imralu wrote:Turkish uses the suffix -s4z (realised as -siz, -sız, -süz, -suz, depending on vowel harmony) which is basically like "-less", "-free" and "without". It's very freely applied and even works with pronouns:

Sensizim.
sen
2s
-s4z
-without
-(y)4m
-COP.PRES.1s

"I am without you."
The same suffix is used in Kazakh and Uzbek as well.

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Re: "Without" in languages without prepositions

Post by Vijay »

In Malayalam, the equivalent of "without" + verb is verb stem + -[aːd̪e]. This can also be used as a negative imperative, so e.g. പാടാതെ [paːˈɖaːd̪e] can mean either 'without singing' or 'don't sing!'. To express "without" + noun, you specifically stick -[aːd̪e] at the end of the verb [jilˈla] 'there isn't'; however, if "without" + noun is a phrase modifying another noun, then you stick -[aːt̪a] to the end instead (this is how it works in Malayalam when a dependent clause modifies a noun), e.g.:

കാശില്ലാതെ എങ്ങനാ ജീവിക്കുന്നത്? [kaːɕɪlˈlaːd̪e jɛŋɛˈnaː ˈd͡ʒiːʋikʲun̪n̪əd̪ɯ] 'How can you survive without money?'
കാശില്ല്ലാത്ത ധർമ്മക്കാരൻ ഞങ്ങളുടെ വീടിന്റെ മുന്നിൽ വന്നു. [kaːɕɪlˈlaːt̪a d̪ʱərməˈkaːɾɛn ɲəˈŋəɭʊɖe ˈʋiːɖɪnde mʊnˈnɪl ʋən̪ˈn̪u] 'The beggar without (any) money came in (i.e. to the) front of our house'.

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