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zompist bboard • View topic - [dz] versus [dʒ]

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 Post subject: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:14 am 
Avisaru
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At least in my experience, there are many, many languages that have [dʒ] without [ʒ], but very few that have [dz] without [z]. [dʒ] and [dz] both commonly derive from palatalization of voiced stops, fortition of [j], or assibilation of voiced palatal obstruents. The former is somewhat more common than the latter, but [dz] also seems more prone to deaffrication in the absence of [z] than [dʒ] is in the absence of [ʒ]. Any ideas as to why?

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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:32 pm 
Avisaru
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Well, it's not as extreme, but I think [ts] is likewise less common than [tʃ]. I've never really thought of [dz] as more prone to de-affrication than [dʒ]; what's the reason you say that? The main examples I can think of of [dz] > [z] are in French, where it was part of generalized de-affrication, and in various Slavic languages, where it seems to have been accompanied by [dʒ] > [ʒ]. Romanian also has [z] from earlier [dʲ], but it looks like it also had [dʲ] > [dʒ] > [ʒ] in similar contexts. If I'm reading the , the reason why modern Romanian has [dʒ] but not [dz] is because there was later palatalization of velars to [tʃ] and [dʒ].


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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:42 pm 
Avisaru
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For an Equus hemionus guess, I would suggest:
1) the most common source of /ʒ/ in languages is the lenition of earlier /dʒ/;
2) the most common source of /dz/ in languages is the fronting of earlier /dʒ/ (or /dʑ/);
3) the most common source of /z/ in languages is, however, the voicing of earlier /s/.

Hence, starting from a language that has no voiced sibilants, you first have decent odds of some kind of palatalization first creating /dʒ/; then roughly equal odds that this decays further into either /dz/ or /ʒ/; and a further small chance that these decay even further to /z/. However, at all points of this process, /z/ being created by voicing is also possible.

---

The underlying motivation to this might be that phonologically, [dʒ] is often analyzeable simply as a voiced palatal stop = [+voice] [+high] [-continuant], but [dz] probably needs to be encoded in "full detail": [anterior] [+voice] [+strident] [+delayed] [-continuant]. (Same also goes for [ts] versus [tʃ].)

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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:32 am 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Last edited by Chengjiang on Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:35 pm 
Avisaru
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Come to think of it, IIRC a lot of languages have a segment that freely or idiolectally varies along a range like [ɟ]~[ɟʝ]~[ȡ]~[dʑ]~[dʒ]. (Either that or the "palatal stop representing postalveolar affricate" convention is frequently extended beyond transcriptions into actual detailed descriptions of the phonology by a lot of linguists.) So for a lot of languages with "/dʒ/" it has sounds like these as acceptable pronunciations, while /dz/ is generally only [dz]. (The main exception I can think of being /z/, or /d/ before /u/, in standard Japanese, which seems to freely vary between [dz] and [z].)

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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:32 pm 
Avisaru
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I think some languages may also have neutralization of [dz]~[dʒ]~[dʑ], usually accompanied by neutralization of [ts]~[tʃ]~[tɕ]. For example, apparently in Korean the lenis consonant ㅈ (which is voiced intervocalically, from what I understand) may be pronounced as an alveolar affricate in the Pyongyang dialect. <dy> is said to vary between [dʒ], [dz] and [ʒ]; seemingly it depends mostly on dialect.

The Mandarin lenis consonant <z> is generally transcribed as [ts], since in most cases it has from what I understand approximately zero voice-onset time, but I remember reading somewhere that Mandarin lenis consonants can be voiced in some contexts.

In general, it seems to be harder for fricatives and affricates to be phonetically fully voiced than it is for plosives, but I don't know that that's relevant for phonology. It seems that plenty of languages get along fine with phonologically voiced/lenis fricatives and/or affricates that can be distinguished phonetically from their voiceless/fortis counterparts by other factors such as duration and aspiration. (E.g. I've read that German and Navajo /z/ for example are commonly devoiced; it may also be relevant that in both of these languages, the contrast with /s/ is often neutralized.)


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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:33 pm 
Smeric
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I don't know about Navajo, Korean and Tagalog, but Chinese also has the same aspirated-unaspirated contrast in stops as in affricates. German has devoicing contexts for all voiced ostrubents. Very few languages have aspirated fricatives, while many have aspirated vs unaspirated (usually voiceless) stops. For fricatives, at least, I'd say they are more likely to be voiced than a stop. Affricates, on the other hand, tend to follow the patterns of stops.

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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:50 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:11 pm 
Sanno
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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:49 pm 
Avisaru
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Last edited by Sumelic on Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:01 pm 
Smeric
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I'm puzzled by your statement on German - yes, in standard German there is no contrast between /z/ and /s/ word-initially before vowels, but the phoneme showing up is /z/, with a voiced realisation, so how would that be devoicing? (Basically, the only place where the two phonemes are contrasted is between vowels; otherwise there is either /z/ in #_V- or /s/ everywhere else.)


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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:03 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:56 am 
Sanci
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That's certainly true for Austro-Bavarian speakers, especially Austrians who seem to have [z] only in certain environments e.g. insel, but I'm not sure if it's voiced after all voiced consonants.


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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:46 pm 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:42 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:07 am 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:51 pm 
Avisaru
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:12 pm 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: [dz] versus [dʒ]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:25 pm 
Avisaru
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Possibly relevant to this topic: Apparently in Hausa, morphophonological processes that palatalize alveolars convert [t d s z] to [tʃ dʒ ʃ dʒ].

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Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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