H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
One thing I have seen is there is variation in English between H/æ/lloween and H/ɑ/lloween, and this variation, at least from personal experience, does not seem to necessarily pattern with particular dialects. For instance, my father has H/æ/lloween while I have H/ɑ/lloween, despite having grown up in the same suburb as myself. The orthography at least implies that H/æ/lloween is the more conservative form, and I tend to notice middle aged and older people are more likely to have this form than younger people. Does anyone have any idea of what is driving this variation, since at least in NAE æ > ɑ (or in the context of my dialect, ɛ > a) is not a regular sound change?
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I think it is a regularisation according to this rule from the English spelling rules:
Linkzompist wrote:18. al is pronounced òl before r, s, m, a dental stop, or final ll: also, already, wall, bald, although, almost.
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Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
Except in the dialect here those words have /ɔ/ not /ɑ/. And this does not occur in S/æ/lly, sh/æ/llow, f/æ/llow, s/æ/llow, c/æ/llow, or O'M/æ/lley (there are probably others I cannot remember right now), and then there's a different sound change in marshm/ɛ/llow.mèþru wrote:I think it is a regularisation according to this rule from the English spelling rules:Linkzompist wrote:18. al is pronounced òl before r, s, m, a dental stop, or final ll: also, already, wall, bald, although, almost.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I have /ɑ/, making hallow and hollow homophones for me.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
This is probably a useless contribution but you triggered a memory of elementary school where we re-enacted the Salem witch trials (I used to live in Salem, Massachusetts) and a "witch" was burned at the stake because she was asked to recite the Lord's Prayer and said "hallowed" with /æ/ instead of /a/. (sic, not /ɑ/)
I know that in that part of Massachusetts, there are people who have the bath/trap split, and it's universally assumed that words with /a/ are somehow more dignified because they sound British. I never really thought about it before, but I think I still have that mental association, such that if someone from near here said Halloween with /ɑ/ and I noticed it I would assume they were deliberately being pretentious. Yet, saying it to myself just now, it doesn't seem "wrong", so I've probably been hearing both pronunciations for quite awhile and simply not noticed.
I know that in that part of Massachusetts, there are people who have the bath/trap split, and it's universally assumed that words with /a/ are somehow more dignified because they sound British. I never really thought about it before, but I think I still have that mental association, such that if someone from near here said Halloween with /ɑ/ and I noticed it I would assume they were deliberately being pretentious. Yet, saying it to myself just now, it doesn't seem "wrong", so I've probably been hearing both pronunciations for quite awhile and simply not noticed.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
Considering the original is Scots, the more conservative pronounciation would be /ɑ/, the whole word being /hɑlɑ′i:n/, /hɑl′i:n/ or /hɑle′i:n/ : http://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/hallow_n2
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
Uh...hallow is a native English word; the Scots word is cognate. Halloween is just a contraction of hallow evening, i.e., "holy night."jmcd wrote:Considering the original is Scots, the more conservative pronounciation would be /ɑ/, the whole word being /hɑlɑ′i:n/, /hɑl′i:n/ or /hɑle′i:n/ : http://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/hallow_n2
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
More properly, "All Hallows' Evening", as November 1st is "All Hallows' Day", though because "hallow" has changed enough in meaning amongst the general populace, we now refer to November 1st as "All Saints' Day" much of the time. As for why we kept "Hallow' e'en", that's a different story.
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I think there are a couple of things going on with "hɑllow."
First, as mèþru said, it's a common pattern in English that <all> = THOUGHT followed by /l/, which for people with the cot-caught merger is /ɑl/. Apparently this doesn't apply for you, but a lot of American English speakers fall into this category.
As you said, this pronunciation is actually NOT regular before vowels (that's normally /æl/). But there are enough exceptions due to suffixation (caller, calling), w-rounding (wallow, swallow) and miscellaneous other oddities that this pattern may not be very obvious to most people.
The fact that "hollow" already exists may make it easier to use that pronunciation, since it is familiar.
In addition, for me at least, the relationship between "hallow" and "holy" is fairly salient. The meanings are similar enough, and the h_l pattern is distinctive enough, that I felt that these were related without needing to look up the etymology. "Holy" is much more common and I definitely learned it earlier, and it has an "o." It's true this is pronounced /oʊ/, but alternation between /oʊ/ and LOT is fairly common in English; there's even an example with the morpheme "holy" (holiday). Alternations between GOAT and TRAP are much less common; the only other example that I can think of is "ghost"~"ghastly."
First, as mèþru said, it's a common pattern in English that <all> = THOUGHT followed by /l/, which for people with the cot-caught merger is /ɑl/. Apparently this doesn't apply for you, but a lot of American English speakers fall into this category.
As you said, this pronunciation is actually NOT regular before vowels (that's normally /æl/). But there are enough exceptions due to suffixation (caller, calling), w-rounding (wallow, swallow) and miscellaneous other oddities that this pattern may not be very obvious to most people.
The fact that "hollow" already exists may make it easier to use that pronunciation, since it is familiar.
In addition, for me at least, the relationship between "hallow" and "holy" is fairly salient. The meanings are similar enough, and the h_l pattern is distinctive enough, that I felt that these were related without needing to look up the etymology. "Holy" is much more common and I definitely learned it earlier, and it has an "o." It's true this is pronounced /oʊ/, but alternation between /oʊ/ and LOT is fairly common in English; there's even an example with the morpheme "holy" (holiday). Alternations between GOAT and TRAP are much less common; the only other example that I can think of is "ghost"~"ghastly."
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
Almost. It's a compound word of 'hallow' and 'e'en' (in Older Scots, 'evin'/'ewin'), the Scots word never having had the -ing ending on this particular word.Zaarin wrote:Uh...hallow is a native English word; the Scots word is cognate. Halloween is just a contraction of hallow evening, i.e., "holy night."jmcd wrote:Considering the original is Scots, the more conservative pronounciation would be /ɑ/, the whole word being /hɑlɑ′i:n/, /hɑl′i:n/ or /hɑle′i:n/ : http://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/hallow_n2
Just like 'till' is not a contraction of 'until' but rather the original form of 'until' without the prefix.
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
Though it's my rule, in my speech it doesn't apply to Halloween! For me the word has /a/, just like hollow (and I don't have the cot/caught merger; this is definitely not an /ɔ/ word). I wouldn't call this /ɑ/ since I'm told that my /ɔ/ is [ɑ].mèþru wrote:I think it is a regularisation according to this rule from the English spelling rules:Linkzompist wrote:18. al is pronounced òl before r, s, m, a dental stop, or final ll: also, already, wall, bald, although, almost.
But hallowed (or All Hallows) has /æ/.
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Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I have /æ/. I think those who are saying it's a regularization are right. There may also be some influence from the fact that several common General American English words end in (very rough diaphonemic transcription) /ɑlo/ and hallow is an uncommon word in Modern English outside of specific religious contexts.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I have /æ/. I have never heard /ɑ/.
You people might as well be telling me you have /œ̃˧˦˧/ as your <a> in Halloween.
mind
blown
It had never occurred to me that they even could be homophones. My hallow, and the hallow of the entire world of my life experience, has /æ/.Zaarin wrote:making hallow and hollow homophones for me.
You people might as well be telling me you have /œ̃˧˦˧/ as your <a> in Halloween.
mind
blown
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
Natively I have /ɑ/, but I've heard /æ/ so much from the media that it doesn't sound off to me and I know I must've used it myself before. (In fact, it took some time thinking it over before I was sure about my native form.)
Weirdly, I have /ɑ/ for hallow but only in the Lord's Prayer[*]. I didn't even realise this until after Mark posted the form hallowed. I kept hearing /æ/ in my head every time I said hallow or Allhallows', but when I recited the Lord's Prayer, I autodefaulted to /ɑ/.
[*] Or--to use my native term--"the 'Our Father'". "Lord's Prayer" sounds so very Protestant to me.[/size]
Weirdly, I have /ɑ/ for hallow but only in the Lord's Prayer[*]. I didn't even realise this until after Mark posted the form hallowed. I kept hearing /æ/ in my head every time I said hallow or Allhallows', but when I recited the Lord's Prayer, I autodefaulted to /ɑ/.
[*] Or--to use my native term--"the 'Our Father'". "Lord's Prayer" sounds so very Protestant to me.[/size]
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I'm actually surprised by this. I've heard /æ/ and /ɑ/ almost equally so that neither pronunciation seems at all foreign to me.cromulant wrote:I have /æ/. I have never heard /ɑ/.
It had never occurred to me that they even could be homophones. My hallow, and the hallow of the entire world of my life experience, has /æ/.Zaarin wrote:making hallow and hollow homophones for me.
You people might as well be telling me you have /œ̃˧˦˧/ as your <a> in Halloween.
mind
blown
...This actually made me realize that the Lord's Prayer is the one place I pronounced hallowed with /æ/...(I am Protestant, so this may be a Protestant/Catholic split? On the other hand, I've heard plenty of Protestants use /ɑ/.)linguoboy wrote:Natively I have /ɑ/, but I've heard /æ/ so much from the media that it doesn't sound off to me and I know I must've used it myself before. (In fact, it took some time thinking it over before I was sure about my native form.)
Weirdly, I have /ɑ/ for hallow but only in the Lord's Prayer[*]. I didn't even realise this until after Mark posted the form hallowed. I kept hearing /æ/ in my head every time I said hallow or Allhallows', but when I recited the Lord's Prayer, I autodefaulted to /ɑ/.
[*] Or--to use my native term--"the 'Our Father'". "Lord's Prayer" sounds so very Protestant to me.[/size]
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
Same.cromulant wrote:I have /æ/. I have never heard /ɑ/.
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I say /æ/, I assume because I pronounce "hallow" with an /æ/.
Re: H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑ/lloween
I'm honestly not even sure I have one more common than the other, both sound equally correct. My default *might* be with a front vowel, but I think they're just in free variation.
Also, interestingly enough, I believe I have [hɒləʊ(w)ɨd] in The Lord's Prayer, with three syllables and a back vowel, but /hæləʊd/ normally.
Also, interestingly enough, I believe I have [hɒləʊ(w)ɨd] in The Lord's Prayer, with three syllables and a back vowel, but /hæləʊd/ normally.