zompist bboard

As I've mentioned a few times, I'm working on beefing up my Punic a posteriori language's lexicon with Biblical Hebrew. While working on that, I came across the Hebrew word mallūᵃḥ "mallow" and was struck by its resemblance to the English word. A quick Google search reveals that mallow comes from Latin malva and related to Greek malakhe, which Etymonline says comes from "a pre-Latin Mediterranean language" (I can't, however, find Could these words be from a Semitic language, or is this a chance resemblance?

EDIT: Just found the Wiktionary page on malva which says it is from a Semitic source (it doesn't specify which one but cites the Hebrew word I just mentioned for comparison--I would speculate the origin is Hebrew or Aramaic since Phoenician/Punic has a/i/_CC). Mystery solved...

It’s a mistranslated loanword, though: mallūaḥ actually refers to the saltbush (Atriplex), as its name implies, and mallows (Malvaceae) are called ḥelmīt. By the way, assuming you were looking at Job, (one of) the Latin generic name(s) of the brooms in the same verse (Retama) is also a borrowing, from the Hebrew rətām-, plural stem of rōtem “broom”.

Thanks for the information. I'm actually going through Strong's concordance, which seems to be one of the better places to find Biblical Hebrew lemmas listed out (though I do wish I could exclude the proper names...).

Is the name רותם from the same root or it means something else?

Io wrote:Is the name רותם from the same root or it means something else?

Wikipedia says yes.

Ohh, ok... as I was scratching my heading thinking what could possibly lead to people naming their offspring 'broom' googling the Hebrew word turns up results of a plant. Makes sense now.

Io wrote:Ohh, ok... as I was scratching my heading thinking what could possibly lead to people naming their offspring 'broom' googling the Hebrew word turns up results of a plant. Makes sense now.

Well, English-speakers name their children after plants like "Heather," "Thistle," "Rowan," and "Ash," so it's not really that strange.

Zaarin wrote:

Io wrote:Ohh, ok... as I was scratching my heading thinking what could possibly lead to people naming their offspring 'broom' googling the Hebrew word turns up results of a plant. Makes sense now.

Well, English-speakers name their children after plants like "Heather," "Thistle," "Rowan," and "Ash," so it's not really that strange.

I'm not sure you could find one in a hundred English-speakers who knew that "broom" was also the name of a plant, however.

linguoboy wrote:

Zaarin wrote:

Io wrote:Ohh, ok... as I was scratching my heading thinking what could possibly lead to people naming their offspring 'broom' googling the Hebrew word turns up results of a plant. Makes sense now.

Well, English-speakers name their children after plants like "Heather," "Thistle," "Rowan," and "Ash," so it's not really that strange.

I'm not sure you could find one in a hundred English-speakers who knew that "broom" was also the name of a plant, however.

Seriously? I think you'd probably find at least as many as knew what a "Rowan" was.
Maybe it's a biome thing. We have a lot of broom around here, and it's very distinctive. I think people I knew might not always know immediately what was broom and what was gorse and what was heather, but would have some sort of "bright-flowered rough plant you see on the hillsides" recognition of the name. Maybe not, I guess. Certainly a lot more than 1/100 around these parts, though.

linguoboy wrote:

Zaarin wrote:

Io wrote:Ohh, ok... as I was scratching my heading thinking what could possibly lead to people naming their offspring 'broom' googling the Hebrew word turns up results of a plant. Makes sense now.

Well, English-speakers name their children after plants like "Heather," "Thistle," "Rowan," and "Ash," so it's not really that strange.

I'm not sure you could find one in a hundred English-speakers who knew that "broom" was also the name of a plant, however.

It's possible. I can't say it's a plant that comes to my attention very often, but on the other hand anywhere it's found in North America it's present as an invasive species (usually a pestilent one, like Scotch broom in the PNW).

Salmoneus wrote:Seriously? I think you'd probably find at least as many as knew what a "Rowan" was.

I think, at least in certain circles, the rowan tree has become more prominent because the ancient Celts associated flying rowans with magic, and consequently both fantasy and neopaganism have come to associate all rowans with magic. They crop up pretty frequently in fantasy. Despite being something of a fantasy geek, though, I know them chiefly for their showy red berries and fall colors. I understand in the Northeast rowans have supplanted a lot of the native mountain ash.

I think linguoboy's main point is that when people hear someone being called e.g. "Rowan", they either know it's a plant or they just mark it down as some name - names don't need to have a meaning in Western culture. But if they'd hear someone being called "Broom", I'd bet most people would think of the tool before perhaps remembering that it's a plant name, too - i.e., exactly the reaction Io had.

Hebrew names-from-nature do tend to include things that English-speakers wouldn’t consider People Names. Just in my closest circle of friends I can count the names ‘Sea-Eagle’ and ‘Myrrh’, as well as the slightly more acceptable-in-English ‘Oak’ and ‘Coral’ (a boy). I’ve also met people called ‘Seagull’, ‘Citrus’, and ‘Fawn’. A lot of them are very common throughout Jewish history, especially the nice-sounding ones like ‘Wolf’ or ‘Bear’ for men, and ‘Hind/Doe’ or ‘Date Palm’ for women. But then there are also more obscure names like ‘Rockrose (Cistus)’ and ‘Torso’, and the really awful ones which are homophones of something else entirely, like ‘Meadow’ (/Heddle) and ‘Pioneer’ (/Pollen Tube).

hwhatting wrote:I think linguoboy's main point is that when people hear someone being called e.g. "Rowan", they either know it's a plant or they just mark it down as some name - names don't need to have a meaning in Western culture. But if they'd hear someone being called "Broom", I'd bet most people would think of the tool before perhaps remembering that it's a plant name, too - i.e., exactly the reaction Io had.

Sure, but English (and generally Germanic if not IE) names are pretty thoroughly divorced from their meaning. A few might stick out (I have strong associations with the name Daisy, for example, but probably because I associate it with literary characters like Daisy Buchanan or Daisy Miller more than because of associations with daisies)--but overall most names, even with transparent etymologies like Hunter or Rose, get glossed over as names, not words. The only way that will be an exception is names that aren't common (or aren't common anymore): Bear (common enough to not stick out--aside from Bear McCreary I also had a classmate in middle school named Bear--but certainly not as common as Bjørn in Scandinavia), Wolf (can't say I've ever known anyone with this name, unlike its cousins Wolff, Wulf, Ulf, etc.), Destiny (such a horrible name), and other stupid Americanisms like "Charisma" (I kid you not I knew someone with this name--sure it's euphonic, but it's still a horrible name). All that being said, I agree that I associate "broom" with a tool for sweeping before I associate it with a flowering shrub (subshrub?), but I'm reasonably certain that rōtem is not the Hebrew word for an implement for sweeping.

Astraios wrote:Hebrew names-from-nature do tend to include things that English-speakers wouldn’t consider People Names. Just in my closest circle of friends I can count the names ‘Sea-Eagle’ and ‘Myrrh’, as well as the slightly more acceptable-in-English ‘Oak’ and ‘Coral’ (a boy). I’ve also met people called ‘Seagull’, ‘Citrus’, and ‘Fawn’. A lot of them are very common throughout Jewish history, especially the nice-sounding ones like ‘Wolf’ or ‘Bear’ for men, and ‘Hind/Doe’ or ‘Date Palm’ for women. But then there are also more obscure names like ‘Rockrose (Cistus)’ and ‘Torso’, and the really awful ones which are homophones of something else entirely, like ‘Meadow’ (/Heddle) and ‘Pioneer’ (/Pollen Tube).

Actually the Hebrew female name "Date Palm" isn't all that uncommon in English, either: Tamar(a). Except that we call "sea-eagles" "bald eagles" and "myrrh" is a little more...exotic in the West, those both sound like reasonable names as well. Also, "Fawn" is actually an English name for girls. But yeah, it is pretty interesting to see how different cultures approach naming.

Zaarin, Wolf Blitzer.

Straio, I wish you had also written the Hebrew originals of all those names

And this maybe isn't really relevant but anyway in some Bulgarian dialects 'birch' is called метла which is the word for 'broom' (the tool) instead of бреза.

hwhatting wrote:I think linguoboy's main point is that when people hear someone being called e.g. "Rowan", they either know it's a plant or they just mark it down as some name - names don't need to have a meaning in Western culture. But if they'd hear someone being called "Broom", I'd bet most people would think of the tool before perhaps remembering that it's a plant name, too - i.e., exactly the reaction Io had.

Only a minority of English-speakers live in places where broom grows wild. And, IME, most people's knowledge of even common plants where they live is appalling. I once posted a quiz in my online journal asking what people called a handful of common plants (e.g. Plantago lanceolata), expecting to see some interesting regional variation. To my surprised, no one responding could identify all of them and some could not identify any of them.

So, yeah, I think the reaction of most speakers to learning someone is named "Broom" would be the same as learning they were named "Rake" or "Spatula".

Zaarin wrote:stupid Americanisms like "Charisma" (I kid you not I knew someone with this name--sure it's euphonic, but it's still a horrible name)

There's an American television actress named Charisma Carpenter, known mainly through her work on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel where she played a character named Cordelia Chase. (Other names of popular girls are the show were "Harmony" and "Aphrodisia", which was lampshaded in an early episode.)

Zaarin wrote:I'm reasonably certain that rōtem is not the Hebrew word for an implement for sweeping.

Yeah, rotem is the plant only, the sweeping tool is mat’ate.

Io wrote:Hebrew

עיטם, מור, אלון, אלמוג, שחף, הדר, עופר, זאב, דוב, איילת, תמר, לוטם, גו, ניר, נחשון
Eytam, Mor, Alon, Almog, Shakhaf, Hadar, Ofer, Ze’ev, Dov, Ayelet, Tamar, Lotem, Gev, Nir, Nakhshon

The guy called Torso (Gev) did have a pretty nice torso, so maybe there’s something to it. :p

Io wrote:Zaarin, Wolf Blitzer.

Ah, yes. I know the name, anyway.

linguoboy wrote:Only a minority of English-speakers live in places where broom grows wild. And, IME, most people's knowledge of even common plants where they live is appalling. I once posted a quiz in my online journal asking what people called a handful of common plants (e.g. Plantago lanceolata), expecting to see some interesting regional variation. To my surprised, no one responding could identify all of them and some could not identify any of them.

I could probably do pretty well with plants in the PNW, Northeast, or Mid Atlantic states, but I admit I'd be hardpressed to name many of the non-cultivated plants here in Florida. On the other hand, I'm weird in that I find most sub-tropical and tropical plants ugly, so...

linguoboy wrote:

Zaarin wrote:stupid Americanisms like "Charisma" (I kid you not I knew someone with this name--sure it's euphonic, but it's still a horrible name)

There's an American television actress named Charisma Carpenter, known mainly through her work on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel where she played a character named Cordelia Chase. (Other names of popular girls are the show were "Harmony" and "Aphrodisia", which was lampshaded in an early episode.)

That sounds like something Whedon would do. I'm all for unusual names, but I can't say I'm on board with the American trend of grabbing random abstractions and using them as girls' names. :p

Zaarin wrote:I'm all for unusual names, but I can't say I'm on board with the American trend of grabbing random abstractions and using them as girls' names. :p

Then you're not all for unusual names after all, you're only partly for them.

linguoboy wrote:

Zaarin wrote:I'm all for unusual names, but I can't say I'm on board with the American trend of grabbing random abstractions and using them as girls' names. :p

Then you're not all for unusual names after all, you're only partly for them.

It's hard to say names like "Destiny" or "Liberty" or whatever are "unusual" names--I'm pretty certain most of them chart pretty high, at least in America.