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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:41 pm 
Avisaru
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Last edited by Sumelic on Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:04 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:06 am 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:16 am 
Sumerul
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Really, "citation needed" is the resort of people incapable of defending their own arguments, so they attempt to shift the burden onto the other person, even when the burden should really be on themselves, and they combine this with an appeal to authority, as if something really is more valid because it is cited from some journal, which makes this burden very impractical to meet, because trying to track down relevant citations is never practical to people who do not have inordinate amounts of time on their hands (e.g. they have jobs) and who do not have access to university libraries (journal articles are expensive for us muggles) and like.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:30 pm 
Avisaru
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OK, you want us (i.e. saying syllables are phonetic) to give you a proof. I can't give you any scientific proof like a spectrogram or anything else, but I have randomly asked my younger brother (9 years) what a syllable is. His answer was "It's the smallest part of speech which can be said all in one, shortest as possible, moment" (he said in Polish "najmniejsza część mowy, która może być powiedziana na raz", I can't find a translation of "na raz"). Sorry, I don't want humiliate you, Travis, but it's sad that even children "feel" syllables and you don't.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:41 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:50 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:33 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:18 pm 
Sanno
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For...

Look, if you want to have a serious debate, define your terms.

So far as I can see, both sides are saying things that are obviously true, but are simply defining core terms differently.

Begin with: what do you understand by "phonetic"?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:27 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:03 pm 
Sanci
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I'm going to have to agree with Salmoneus here. My general impression of the argument dominating this thread is one of semantics, not content.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:23 pm 
Smeric
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Then I shall repeat what I said earlier - I can distinctly hear the difference between the syllabification of the s in "mistake" and "mis-take" before the t even gets articulated. How does that not qualify as evidence?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:10 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:19 pm 
Sumerul
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(Just for the record, mistake versus mis-take is probably not the best of examples; I at least have a stress distinction between the two words in addition to an aspiration one.)

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:56 pm 
Smeric
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I'm aware of the stress issue, but even when I move the stress in 'mistake' to the initial syllable, the distinction persists in exactly the same way.

So what you're saying is that we have no way to successfully refute your claims based on the information we have available to us, and we should just go home and accept you as the source of all truth? Ok, maybe not that last part, but you're striking out firmly into the realms of unfalsifiability, which itself is cause for concern.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:10 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:22 am 
Smeric
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This would require me to find information on the syllabification of near-minimal pairs in a variety of unrelated languages. Somehow, that strikes me as even more impractical. The only reason I know of the mistake - mis-take pair in English is because I saw it in a paper on PIE syllabification.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:58 am 
Smeric
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Proof is important in debates. If someone days for example, that most murderers hate albinos, I would want confirmation for it because of the unlikeliness. (My example is ridiculous, and I would probably ignore such a remark in real life, but I wanted something non-political.) That doesn't mean that proof is always necessary, or that people should be expected to be able to bring proof when proof is required. But, in the latter situation, it makes your argument look weak.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:37 am 
Avisaru
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I emphasise I'm not a native speaker of English but I think I may have found a proof - "inner" versus "in her (e.g. eyes)" with the stress on the first syllable in the latter. The first can be [ˈɪ.nə(ɹ)] and the second can be [ˈɪn.ə(ɹ)], can't they?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:08 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:14 pm 
Sanci
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I second the longer /n/ in 'inner'.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:23 pm 
Avisaru
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Ok, so the really only argument left is that in Polish when I have two different consonants between vowels they (almost?) always belong to separate syllables, even when there are words beginning with a cluster containing them ("hopsa", an exclamation meaning "jump!", is for me [ˈxʌ̙p.sä] and there is "psa", a genitive of "dog", [ˈpsä]), and you are said to have a rule of maximal onset when such exists word initially. I don't have time to look around for a (near-)minimal pair, so if you will have a reasonable counterargument and not require a minimal pair, I will give up.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:29 pm 
Avisaru
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Absolutely no difference in connected speech as far as I can tell, both "inner" and "in her" are identical with a nasalized flap. I can artificially "lengthen" (de-flap) the /n/ of "inner," but as linguoboy says if I try the same thing with "in her" the /h/ obligatorily appears.


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