Erghhh... Prescriptivism

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linguoboy
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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by linguoboy »

mèþru wrote:I thought it's the same effect as with related mutually unintelligible or partially intelligible varieties?
Not really. To quote Wikipedia:
Since speakers already understood one another from before the advent of the koiné, the koineisation process is not as drastic as pidginization and creolization. Unlike pidginization and creolization, there is no "target" within Koine formation. It involves continuity in that speakers do not need to abandon their own linguistic varieties.
With creolisation, you end up with a morphosyntactically novel variety which generally takes most of its lexicon from a single language (known as the "lexifier language"). A koine is still recognisably part of the same continuum as its source languages, it just favours those elements which are commonest among them and disfavours anything too markedly regional.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Salmoneus »

linguoboy wrote:
mèþru wrote:The lack of lexical differences is because of the levelling/koineïsation effect of colonisation and mass communication.
FTFY.

It would be interesting, btw, to try to measure lexical diversity not just in terms of the total number of variants but the breadth of their use. What I mean is, when people say the UK has more lexical diversity, what that generally means is "most people use one of one or two terms, but there are still some elderly people in scattered rural areas who use one of a host of alternatives". (The USA has this, too, btw; just check out the DARE sometime.) But I can think of several examples where the USA has several competing regional variants for a commonplace term no one of which dominates. Pop vs soda vs coke is the best known example, but there are others.
Just pointing out that although it's true that leical variation has collapsed in the last century, there's still a lot of dialectical vocabulary used by younger generations in some areas, particularly in the North (and of course new dialectical vocabulary in areas like London).
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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Travis B. »

linguoboy wrote:
mèþru wrote:The lack of lexical differences is because of the levelling/koineïsation effect of colonisation and mass communication.
FTFY.

It would be interesting, btw, to try to measure lexical diversity not just in terms of the total number of variants but the breadth of their use. What I mean is, when people say the UK has more lexical diversity, what that generally means is "most people use one of one or two terms, but there are still some elderly people in scattered rural areas who use one of a host of alternatives". (The USA has this, too, btw; just check out the DARE sometime.) But I can think of several examples where the USA has several competing regional variants for a commonplace term no one of which dominates. Pop vs soda vs coke is the best known example, but there are others.
Another example is second person plural pronouns in English, where all the possible choices are tied to what variety one speaks, aside from you, which while standard is not what most people actually say. Of course, then, one could argue that the most standard non-standard second person plural pronoun in North America is you guys.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by linguoboy »

Salmoneus wrote:Just pointing out that although it's true that leical variation has collapsed in the last century, there's still a lot of dialectical vocabulary used by younger generations in some areas, particularly in the North (and of course new dialectical vocabulary in areas like London).
Like I said, it would be fascinating to see an attempt to capture this.

One area I remember cropping up before as a huge source of variation was the term for a narrow passageway between two buildings on an urban street. It seems every metropolis in the UK has its own distinct word and for the most speakers aren't even aware other variants exist,

There's a US parallel in the name for the grassy strip between the sidewalk (pavement) and the curb (kerb). Every city here seems to have its own name with little if any regional patterning.

[In Chicago, these are, respectively, a "gangway" and a "parkway". In St Louis, were I grew up, we said "breezeway" and "verge", though now I'm not sure if those were terms in use locally or ones I got from my father, who like me was born in Baltimore.]
Travis B. wrote:Another example is second person plural pronouns in English, where all the possible choices are tied to what variety one speaks, aside from you, which while standard is not what most people actually say. Of course, then, one could argue that the most standard non-standard second person plural pronoun in North America is you guys.
Probably still true, but I am amazed by the inroads y'all has made over the last decade or so. It is no longer a surprising thing for me to see or hear it used by speakers who are not of Southern origin and have few if any other Southern regionalisms in their speech.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by mèþru »

I usually hear only Southern and AAVE-influenced people and their friends using it unironically.
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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Sumelic »

linguoboy wrote:
One area I remember cropping up before as a huge source of variation was the term for a narrow passageway between two buildings on an urban street. It seems every metropolis in the UK has its own distinct word and for the most speakers aren't even aware other variants exist,

There's a US parallel in the name for the grassy strip between the sidewalk (pavement) and the curb (kerb). Every city here seems to have its own name with little if any regional patterning.

[In Chicago, these are, respectively, a "gangway" and a "parkway". In St Louis, were I grew up, we said "breezeway" and "verge", though now I'm not sure if those were terms in use locally or ones I got from my father, who like me was born in Baltimore.]
Does the first term refer to what would be called an "alley" in standard English? Both of the terms you gave would confuse me. "Gangway" isn't really a term I use, but it suggested some kind of raised walkway to me, and the dictionary suggests that it has this meaning for some people. I don't have a word for the grassy-strip thing.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by linguoboy »

Sumelic wrote:Does the first term refer to what would be called an "alley" in standard English?
No. An "alley" runs parallel to the street in order to allow access to the rear of the buildings. A "gangway" runs perpendicular to both street and alley (Chicago blocks are virtually always square) in order to allow pedestrian access between the street and the rear of the buildings. (Not all gangways connect to alleys.)

This is an example of a Chicago "gangway". (The point of view is towards the street.):
Image

And this is a Chicago "alley". (I don't know of any regional terms; "alley" seems standard everywhere.):
Image

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Sumelic »

linguoboy wrote:
Sumelic wrote:Does the first term refer to what would be called an "alley" in standard English?
No. An "alley" runs parallel to the street in order to allow access to the rear of the buildings.
Oh, I hadn't realized "alley" implies "parallel to the main street." The OED and Wikipedia entries seem to say that it usually does, but that some other people have also or do also think of it as having the broader sense that I always thought it had.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by linguoboy »

Sumelic wrote:Oh, I hadn't realized "alley" implies "parallel to the main street." The OED and Wikipedia entries seem to say that it usually does, but that some other people have also or do also think of it as having the broader sense that I always thought it had.
That may well be the usage in many varieties, but IME it always means a passage wide enough accommodate a four-wheeled vehicle, whereas only some gangways/breezeways are wide enough to allow this.

How would you distinguish the two meanings if you had to?

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Travis B. »

I have the same meaning of alley as linguoboy and, I assume, just about everyone else, but I simply have no terms for his gangway/breezeway or parkway/verge. (Gangway to me means a raised walkway, e.g. between a terminal and a plane, and parkway has its usual meaning of a road going through a park area within a city.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Zaarin »

mèþru wrote:I usually hear only Southern and AAVE-influenced people and their friends using it unironically.
Agreed. Non Southern and Southern-influenced uses of y'all are highly marked and very conscious. (There's also the interesting shift in the Deep South where y'all is becoming singular and the new plural is all y'all.)
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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by linguoboy »

Zaarin wrote:(There's also the interesting shift in the Deep South where y'all is becoming singular and the new plural is all y'all.)
That's interesting. I've always associated singular y'all with Yankees trying and failing to speak Southern[*]. (IMD, all y'all is equivalent to "all of you". That is, it unambiguously means everyone in a particular group whereas y'all sometimes indicates only a subset, e.g. those actually present at the moment of speaking.)

[*] A rough equivalent is Southerners saying youse guys in an attempt to sound Yankee.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Salmoneus »

Sumelic wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Sumelic wrote:Does the first term refer to what would be called an "alley" in standard English?
No. An "alley" runs parallel to the street in order to allow access to the rear of the buildings.
Oh, I hadn't realized "alley" implies "parallel to the main street." The OED and Wikipedia entries seem to say that it usually does, but that some other people have also or do also think of it as having the broader sense that I always thought it had.
I would think of the perpendicular roads as 'alleys' first, but when pressed on what the parallels might be called would concede that they too are alleys.
And having overthought about it, I'm now wondering whether I'd go with 'alley' for the parallels and 'alleyway' for the perpendiculars?


Regarding loci of lexical variation: the notorious example in England is very small loaves of bread. Buns, baps, bread rolls... the British Library in passing suggests barm cakes (Lancashire), bread cakes (Leeds), cobs (Derby) and batches (Coventry).

More prominently, words for "friend" (mate, blood, marra), "person" (guy, dude, chap, fellow) terms of address (love, duck, pet), and tags (innit, y'know) all vary wildly and are a key part of distinguishing colloquial forms of speech. Terms for family members also spring to mind (nan, gran, nain, pa, da, dad, mam vs mum, etc). Obviously terms for "good" and "very" are major speechform markers, though these change so quickly that they mark generation and time period just as much as location and class.

The BL's examples of Geordie vocabulary include things like "and such as" (for 'etcetera' or 'and so on'), "bairn" (for 'child'), "crack" (for 'fun', 'banter'), "clarts" (for 'muck'), "grand" and "champion" (for 'good'), "bait" (for 'snack', 'lunch'), "gan" (for 'go'), "granda (for 'grandad'), "loaning" (for 'lane'), "like" and "mind" (tag), "our" (marking names of friends and family), and "aught", "naught" and "somewhat" (something, nothing, some thing). And, of course, the most stereotypical marker of geordiedom, "man" (tag). And "pet" (term of address/tag). "Our mam said it were champion, like" = not from the South.

[I recognise a few of those from my father's (northwestern) speech - aught, naught and somewhat become "awt", "nawt" and "summat", for example, while clarts yields "clarty" (sticky, mucky, viscous) and so on. He doesn't say "gan" except when being nostalgic or idiomatic, though. (e.g. "wuz gannen?" where I would say "Are we going?")]
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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Sumelic »

linguoboy wrote:
Sumelic wrote:Oh, I hadn't realized "alley" implies "parallel to the main street." The OED and Wikipedia entries seem to say that it usually does, but that some other people have also or do also think of it as having the broader sense that I always thought it had.
That may well be the usage in many varieties, but IME it always means a passage wide enough accommodate a four-wheeled vehicle, whereas only some gangways/breezeways are wide enough to allow this.

How would you distinguish the two meanings if you had to?
I've never really had to, as I don't live in a very urban area, but my first thought was "side-alley" vs. "back-alley". Googling "side alley" doesn't show a ton of use, but there are some pictures that correspond somewhat to what I was imaging on the following page: http://www.lilmoocreations.com/15-fanta ... ide-alley/ (Edit: nevermind, these pictures show the space between a wall and the house, not the space between two buildings.)

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Axiem »

linguoboy wrote:In St Louis, were I grew up, we said "breezeway" and "verge", though now I'm not sure if those were terms in use locally or ones I got from my father, who like me was born in Baltimore.
As a St. Louis native who still lives here, I've never heard those terms for those things. I think those are Baltimore-isms.

Like many people, I would call the first an "alley"; most alleys are not big enough for cars to go on, and are primarily designed for people to walk on. The road behind a house might also be an alley, but that's not what ever springs to mind when, say, someone is "mugged in an alley".

There's no word in my dialect for the grassy space (if there is any) between a sidewalk and a curb. Much less for a large, grassy area in the middle of a large street.

A "parkway" is just another synonym for "street". It had never occurred to me that it had any etymological connection with "park" as in a grassy area.

I've always just imagined a "gangway" as that wooden thing people on the coasts put up so they can walk along the shore without actually having a real beach. Probably because I associate it with a "gangplank", so it's made of wood and related to the ocean.

I'd say here that "y'all" is seen as a "Southern" or "black" thing around here, but I use it frequently. Some of that is probably because my spouse is from New Orleans (and therefore uses it) and my middle/high schools had a large percentage of black students, so I've picked up some bits of AAVE here and there. It doesn't particularly turn heads or surprise anyone—or at least, hasn't in a large number of years, for me.

Though, ask a dozen people around St. Louis about these and get two dozen answers. I've heard us referred to as the southern-most northern city, the northern-most southern city, the western-most eastern city, and eastern-most western city (all at once). It's a weird mix.

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Zaarin »

linguoboy wrote:
Zaarin wrote:(There's also the interesting shift in the Deep South where y'all is becoming singular and the new plural is all y'all.)
That's interesting. I've always associated singular y'all with Yankees trying and failing to speak Southern[*]. (IMD, all y'all is equivalent to "all of you". That is, it unambiguously means everyone in a particular group whereas y'all sometimes indicates only a subset, e.g. those actually present at the moment of speaking.)

[*] A rough equivalent is Southerners saying youse guys in an attempt to sound Yankee.
Although my family is ultimately of New York extraction, several of my family members have married into Deep South clans. This is the general situation of the second person pronouns for my Deep South family members:
*You: Has a contrastive sense: "you (as opposed to that other person)"; or similarly a specific sense: "you (specifically you, as opposed to someone else)."
*Y'all: Can be singular or plural, much like standard English you.
*All y'all: Can be generically plural or, as you suggested, can (but doesn't necessarily) imply group membership.
*Y'all guys: Used very rarely and presumably picked up from Yankee family members' use of "you guys."
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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by linguoboy »

Salmoneus wrote:Terms for family members also spring to mind (nan, gran, nain, pa, da, dad, mam vs mum, etc).
The Economist recently had an article on the subject of regional lexical variation. After a brief discussion of the pressures toward standardisation, the author made this observation:
But DARE’s editors resist the standardisation hypothesis. What people call their grandparents—for example, “gramps and gram” or “mee-maw and papaw”—is more immune to the steamroller of national norms. In fact, these words are especially stubborn precisely because they give people an emotional connection to where they come from.
But I think they're missing a more interesting phenomenon here. Early on, they make the point that a language doesn't need, e.g., four synonyms for "x-ray". But the difference between x-rays and grandparents is more than just emotional. With increasing mobility, many families are interregional (like Axiem's Louisiana/Missouri merger or my parents' Missouri/Maryland one) and the result of this is that family terms which are generic in one area gain specificity in a new context.

So when I say "Granddaddy", my siblings know I'm talking about our father's father because our mother's father was always "Grampa". Similarly, "Mémé" and "Pépé" were always my friend Peg's French Canadian grandparents, never her Italian-American ones. In fact, the pressure to have distinctive terms is so strong that families occasionally invent them, which is how my own father came to be called "Ganu" by his grandchildren. My aunt thought "Grandma" sounded too frumpy so she borrowed the German term "Oma" for herself even though neither she nor anyone else in her immediately family spoke any German.

I'm not sure where to look for other examples of this same phenomenon. Foods, maybe? Because, in the same fashion, if I say "crawlers", my family knows I'm talking specifically about the donuts we made at home (of they style marketed nationwide as "old fashioned") even if, in origin, this is just my father's rural Marylandian pronunciation of cruller (which in common use refers to a completely different shape of fried dough).

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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by Ryan of Tinellb »

I'm a born and raised Melburnian. For me, the grassy area between footpath and street is called the "nature strip". Alleys run perpendicular to streets, and can be just wide enough for a single vehicle. The idea of having an area behind the house is odd to me - although that might just be because I grew up in suburbia with backyards and fences all touching. "Minor street" is what came to mind when I saw linguoboy's Chicago "alley".

We (I grew up with two younger brothers) had different names for each of the four grandparents, Grandma and Grandad for the paternal side, Nanna and Papa maternal. It seems to make identification easier, without having to use the "Grampa Joe" style I see on American TV.

I use "y'all" in text when I want to signify number, but it is a deliberate choice. In speech, I think I just use "you".

I think the biggest surprises I had in terms of finding out that something wasn't universal were "jumper" ('sweater' I think you call it) and the celery-salary merger.
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Re: Erghhh... Prescriptivism

Post by alynnidalar »

I use y'all on occasion, but I have absolutely no clue why. (my ordinary second person pronouns are you and you guys) I think I started using it casually/in a deliberately marked way online (particularly in chats e.g. Skype, where my language is very informal), and it's ended up infecting my spoken language.

I'm not sure what the nuances are of why/when I use it, though. In large part I think it's an informality thing (I suppose with connotations of Southern accents being informal), but also partly an emphasis (because it's not commonly used here in Michigan). You guys is certainly still my standard 2PL pronoun, though.
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.

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