Loanwords with a more specific meaning

[Vijay]

While I can see curry as being a kind of gravy by that definition, I think of curries as being in their own category as a peer to gravy and sauce.

I think we Indians (or some of us, at least) tend to think of "curry" as the whole dish and the "gravy" being the liquid in it. In Malayalam, we call this liquid [ˈt͡ʃaːrɯ], but that can also mean other kinds of liquid (for example, [məʈiˈt͡ʃaːrɯ] means the resin from this tree as exemplified by this old song, which I suspect was supposed to be softporn by Indian standards at the time. If you look for [ˈt͡ʃaːrɯ] on the Malayalam Wikipedia, you're automatically redirected to the page for fruit juice). A native speaker of Hindi on the Language Log once suggested to me that [ɾəs] means the same thing in Hindi.

But I've also seen, for example, butter masala described as "gravy," where obviously no meat is involved (at least not in the context of paneer butter masala).

I expected that you might say something like this. I suspect that's basically a case of something being lost in translation because of its surface similarity to the liquid in similar meat dishes, e.g. probably butter chicken in this particular case, the idea being that if the liquid in a meat dish is "gravy," then the liquid in a similar vegetarian dish must be, too. It could also/alternatively be because [ˈt͡ʃaːrɯ] (and perhaps similar terms in other Indian languages) isn't completely synonymous with "gravy."

[Zaarin]

You know, I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure if it's my dialect or idiolect, but everything we've been discussing is a subset of "sauces" for me--which is to say, I would define as a sauce any viscous or semi-viscous liquid (ruling out vinegar or wine, for example) with more than one ingredient (ruling out olive oil, for example) used to enhance the flavor of another food. Thus to me, dressings, condiments, curries, marinara, salsas, etc. are just sub-categories of a broader macro-category "sauces."

[Axiem]

I think we Indians (or some of us, at least) tend to think of "curry" as the whole dish and the "gravy" being the liquid in it.

While I consider the liquid/solid mixture (which you can put on rice) to be the actual curry, by synecdoche, I also call the entire dish that. In much the same way that "ice cream" can both refer to the actual ice cream, or to a dish of ice cream with toppings, etc.

But I'm also extremely ignorant about curries and Indian food in general; most of them I've had have been way too spicy for my tastes :shrug:

[zompist]

This interests me because I've just been reading about Indian cuisine for my book. My understanding is that "curry" is, in general, a British term meaning not much more than "a dish from India". A cookbook I have here says that to (English-speaking) Indians, a curry is a dish with gravy.

The word is said to come from Tamil kaṟi 'relish, sauce'. To complicate things, there's also the curry leaf (Tamil kaṟivēmpu), which is often used in curries— I don't know which word influenced which. Is this the same as Malayalam cāru?

[Chuma]

To complicate things a bit more: Apparently there's a root kar "black", whence we also get kari "charcoal; grill; stir-fry". I also distinctly recall seeing a claim that kari can mean "black pepper", which I guess also makes sense?

[zompist]

These are different words, though. Kaṟi is கறி, kar is கர்.

(Though I believe ṟ today reduces to r in this position. It behaves differently in clusters.)

[Vijay]

The word is said to come from Tamil kaṟi 'relish, sauce'.

கறி can apparently mean all kinds of things in Tamil, even dry dishes with no sauce at all. This may even be true in Malayalam, at least to some extent. After all, our word for 'vegetable(s)' is [pəˈt͡ʃəkəri]. [pəˈt͡ʃa] just means 'green'.

Ironically, I would say that the English word curry does mean to us exactly what you said.

To complicate things, there's also the curry leaf (Tamil kaṟivēmpu), which is often used in curries— I don't know which word influenced which.

I think that comes from கறி rather than the other way around and the name of the leaf is a compound word (I think vēmpu has to do with cooking). In Malayalam, it's written കറിവേപ്പില kaṟivēppila, but the only way I've ever heard anyone pronounce it is [kəɾiˈjaːpla]. Vēppu is surely a nominalization of the verb vēvikkuka 'to cook (something)'. Ila just means 'leaf'.

My parents grow a curry leaf plant in our backyard. It's remarkably resilient for a tropical plant. Here, it dies every winter but just comes back to life again in spring (you do have to bring most of it inside the house in winter, though). It doesn't even seem to require all that much water. We had the same plant in St. Louis and I think Cleveland, too. Also, Malayalees (if not South Indians in general) put curry leaves in EVERYTHING (unless it's either plain rice or something sweet)! I mean, I love my heritage culture and all, but my dad once said Westerners were silly for putting salt and pepper in everything, because black pepper goes well with some things and not others, and I'm like "but you do the exact same thing with curry leaves, and it's just as silly!!" My family also occasionally makes the biggest fucking deal over the fact that I don't actually eat the curry leaves in most dishes, which is ironic given that my dad also recently claimed that a real Malayalee never actually eats them! (OK, rant over. Sorry ).

Is this the same as Malayalam cāru?

Nah, Tamil has cāṟu, too, and I think it means the same thing as our cāṟu. AFAIK ṟ is [r] and r is [ɾ] (றி is [ri]), but...

To complicate things a bit more: Apparently there's a root kar "black", whence we also get kari "charcoal; grill; stir-fry". I also distinctly recall seeing a claim that kari can mean "black pepper", which I guess also makes sense?

These are different words, though. Kaṟi is கறி, kar is கர்.

...'(the color) black' in Tamil can be either கருப்பு or கறுப்பு. In Malayalam, it can only be the latter, so with ṟ [r]. (It can also means 'opium', though, and apparently 'stain' and 'infamy').

I've never heard of either kari or kaṟi meaning 'black pepper', and that's definitely not the case in Malayalam, where if you want to distinguish between black pepper and any other kind of pepper, you say what literally translates to either 'seed pepper' or 'good pepper' (my dad says it's called 'good pepper' because it's milder and thus perceived as more easily digestible). However, it is true that kari [kəˈɾi] in Malayalam can mean either 'charcoal' as a noun or 'burn' as a verb, not 'grill' or 'stir-fry' to my knowledge.

Though I believe ṟ today reduces to r in this position. It behaves differently in clusters.

[ɾ] is in the process of undergoing a merger with [r] in modern Dravidian language varieties, and this merger is already complete in a bunch of them (definitely at least in some varieties of both Indian Tamil and Telugu). In Malayalam, they're still distinct phonemes but in neutralization directly before or after a consonant or word-finally, because only [r] can occur in those environments AFAICT, never [ɾ]. (Also, note the irregular pronunciation of [kəɾiˈjaːpla] and also the Portuguese loanword for 'chair', written kasērā (from cadeira) but pronounced [kəˈsaːre]).

[alynnidalar]

If you want to complicate the "gravy" thing further, my Italian-American relatives in New England refer to the sauce on pasta as "gravy", which really threw me for a loop the first time I heard it.

[clawgrip]

To throw a wrench into this:

In Japanese, gravy is called グレービーソース gurēbī sōsu lit. "gravy sauce".

Because gravy is not very well-known in Japan, so the word "sauce" (a common loanword) is added to clarify. Similarly, サルサソース sarusa sōsu "salsa sauce" has "sauce" added so that people know what the hell it is, I guess.

I hate both of these terms. I am normally fairly accepting of absurd or obnoxious English loanwords and constructed, nonexistent words in Japanese, but I really don't like these two (also "mug cup", come on! But for some reason I accept "guard man").

Also, without context, the word ソース sōsu "sauce" generally refers to one of a number of Japanese versions of Worcestershire sauce, which are used on a variety of Japanese dishes, such as tonkatsu, okonomiyaki, takoyaki, etc.

[linguoboy]

If you want to complicate the "gravy" thing further, my Italian-American relatives in New England refer to the sauce on pasta as "gravy", which really threw me for a loop the first time I heard it.

Also common in the NYC area. I'm not sure if it extends as far as Philly. So wrong.

[Salmoneus]

Chuma wrote:

An even more specific subtype of the introitusangustusism (working title)

Ouch. Kids, don't try this at home!

Chuma wrote:

is when you use a local name to refer to something local. For example, in southern Sweden, some people use the Danish words for "the bridge" and "the city" to mean specifically the bridge to Denmark and Copenhagen. Very convenient.

But this is just as common without borrowing. "The city" is whatever big city is near you. If you're in the Bay Area, it's specifically San Francisco proper (and "the bridge" is the Golden Gate Bridge, even though it's only one of many in the area). In my hometown, it's St Louis City as opposed to St Louis County. In London, it's the City of London or even just the financial district.

FWIW, the City basically IS the financial district - there's nothing else there really, other than the Temple.

This would be analogous to, say, the narrowing of sauce to mean a particular kind of sauce (e.g. tomato sauce/ketchup in BE) and the simultaneous adoption of salsa to mean a particular kind of Mexican sauce.

FWIW, IMD 'salsa' does not mean a Mexican sauce, unless there's a specifically Mexican context somehow. Otherwise, it tends to mean a dressing of a fresh nature, often involving finely-chopped tomatoes. The sort of thing provided with a starter at an Italian restaurant.

[Axiem]

But this is just as common without borrowing. "The city" is whatever big city is near you. If you're in the Bay Area, it's specifically San Francisco proper (and "the bridge" is the Golden Gate Bridge, even though it's only one of many in the area). In my hometown, it's St Louis City as opposed to St Louis County. In London, it's the City of London or even just the financial district.

FWIW, the City basically IS the financial district - there's nothing else there really, other than the Temple.
[/quote]

If you ask St. Louisians where the Financial District is, they're most likely going to say Clayton, which amusingly isn't even in St. Louis City.

Though, some people from the county around here apparently think a mid-sized shopping hub where two highways intersect (64 and 170, for those keeping track) is the City and therefore a Dangerous Place.

(It's not and it's not)

[richard1631978]

My Kenyan girlfriend calls the sauce in a stew "soup", which sounds a little odd.

[Salmoneus]

My Kenyan girlfriend calls the sauce in a stew "soup", which sounds a little odd.

You put sauce into a stew? How odd!

[Vijay]

My Kenyan girlfriend calls the sauce in a stew "soup", which sounds a little odd.

You put sauce into a stew? How odd!

I thought richard1631978 meant the liquid part of the stew.

[Salmoneus]

My Kenyan girlfriend calls the sauce in a stew "soup", which sounds a little odd.

You put sauce into a stew? How odd!

I thought richard1631978 meant the liquid part of the stew.

...yes. This was me employing irony. See, he's saying how odd it is to call the stew "soup", and I'm saying it's odd that HE called the stew "sauce", which for me is a condiment one adds to things. The liquid part of a stew is for me just stew. [I guess that in particularly light, clear stews, it might be called "broth"]

[Vijay]

which for me is a condiment one adds to things. The liquid part of a stew is for me just stew.

Which I had no way of knowing.

[linguoboy]

which for me is a condiment one adds to things. The liquid part of a stew is for me just stew.

Which I had no way of knowing.

Nor I. For most stews, I would call the liquid part "gravy".

[Imralu]

For me, the whole dish is called stew. This can be divided into the gloop and the chunks.

[Vijay]

Gloop? That means pretty much the same thing as goop to me.

[Zaarin]

For me the whole dish is stew and I can't fathom a context in which I'd wish to refer to the liquid and solid parts separately. :p

[mèþru]

I can't fathom a context in which I'd wish to refer to the liquid and solid parts separately. :p

I can, but never needed to and therefore have no idea by how to refer it to.

[Axiem]

If you stick bread in a stew, it soaks up the broth. But I wouldn't think of broth as being the liquid part of a stew. If that makes any sense.

[linguoboy]

For me the whole dish is stew and I can't fathom a context in which I'd wish to refer to the liquid and solid parts separately. :p

We ate our stew on plates. After the chunky bits were finished, you mopped up the gravy with bread. So that's one context.

Another would be in discussing the overall composition. Everyone has their own idea of the perfect ratio of solid parts to liquid. Or the optimal viscosity for the gravy.

[Zaarin]

If you stick bread in a stew, it soaks up the broth. But I wouldn't think of broth as being the liquid part of a stew. If that makes any sense.

Ewwwww. There is nothing I hate more than soggy bread. >_<

For me the whole dish is stew and I can't fathom a context in which I'd wish to refer to the liquid and solid parts separately. :p

We ate our stew on plates. After the chunky bits were finished, you mopped up the gravy with bread. So that's one context.

Another would be in discussing the overall composition. Everyone has their own idea of the perfect ratio of solid parts to liquid. Or the optimal viscosity for the gravy.

Interesting. That makes sense. For me, stew, no matter how thick, is always something you eat with a spoon in a bowl. But as I said, I hate soggy bread. On the other hand, I'm pretty selective about the stews and soups I like, too, so...that would definitely limit the likelihood of an in-depth discussion of their different parts on my end.