zompist bboard

You know that thing, where you import a word, but use it to mean something much more specific?

I think it's a very common phenomenon, but at the moment, I can't think of what it might be called, or eve a lot of examples. "Sombrero" in English is a pretty good example; if I'm not mistaken, it means just "hat" in Spanish. An example from Swedish: "mail", meaning specifically email.

Is there a word for that?

Any favourite examples?

Narrowing? Specialization?

Hebrew has a few from English.

‘puncture’ > פאנצ׳ר pančer (flat tire > screw-up)
‘penalty’ > פנדל pendel (penalty kick in soccer)
‘talk back’ > טוקבק tokbek (online comments)
‘bug’ > באג bag (software bug)

But the ones from Arabic are the best.

فضيحة faḍīḥah (scandal) > פדיחה fadikha (screw up)
عرص ‘arṣ (pimp) > ערס ars (trashy/rude person)
صحي ṣiḥḥī (healthy) > סאחי sakhi (opposed to smoking or drinking)
أحلى aḥlá (sweetest) > אחלה akhla (cool, great)
سلامتك salāmtak (get well) > סלאמתכ salamtak (awesome, good job)

Arabic to Hebrew is always a laugh. I sometimes tell my American friends that we made rudeness a culture

mèþru wrote:Arabic to Hebrew is always a laugh. I sometimes tell my American friends that we made rudeness a culture

I love how blunt and sarcastic my Jewish friends are; Americans are so hypersensitive. :p

Very common with food terminology:

caffè latte > latte [lit. "milk"]
pasta > pasta [lit. "paste"]
prosciutto di Parma > prosciutto [lit. "ham"]
chile con queso > queso [lit. "cheese"]
mole poblano > mole [lit. "sauce; stew"]
jus > jus [lit. "juice"]

I've heard this called both "narrowing" and "specialisation".

Some examples from English to French.

"goal": goalkeeper in soccer
"puzzle": jigsaw puzzle
"buzz": widespread rumor, hype
"people": celebrity

Great examples!

But "narrowing" can also be used more generally, right? I would associate that with more of a gradual shift of meaning to an already existing word. Maybe there's no specific word for this particular thing. I guess that means we need to make one up. Hmm... How do you say "narrow entrance" in Latin? "Introitus angustus", according to Google Translate. Maybe we can work with that...

An even more specific subtype of the introitusangustusism (working title) is when you use a local name to refer to something local. For example, in southern Sweden, some people use the Danish words for "the bridge" and "the city" to mean specifically the bridge to Denmark and Copenhagen. Very convenient.

Chuma wrote:Great examples!

But "narrowing" can also be used more generally, right? I would associate that with more of a gradual shift of meaning to an already existing word.

It doesn't have to be. All of this is semantic narrowing, too. (I'm not so sure about the Arabic to Hebrew examples, though, actually).

Chuma wrote:

An even more specific subtype of the introitusangustusism (working title)

Ouch. Kids, don't try this at home!

Chuma wrote:

is when you use a local name to refer to something local. For example, in southern Sweden, some people use the Danish words for "the bridge" and "the city" to mean specifically the bridge to Denmark and Copenhagen. Very convenient.

But this is just as common without borrowing. "The city" is whatever big city is near you. If you're in the Bay Area, it's specifically San Francisco proper (and "the bridge" is the Golden Gate Bridge, even though it's only one of many in the area). In my hometown, it's St Louis City as opposed to St Louis County. In London, it's the City of London or even just the financial district.

Sure, that's just, I don't know, normal use of words. But this way, you get local words - I mean, not specific to your own locality, but to some other locality. A different kind of local. Don't know if I'm making any sense here, it's 6 in the morning and I've been working all night. :p

For example, people who live outside Malmö would certainly refer to Malmö itself as stan, "the city" in Swedish, but they may also refer to Copenhagen as byen, "the city" in Danish.

Vijay wrote:(I'm not so sure about the Arabic to Hebrew examples, though, actually).

Well, ars and sakhi are definitely narrowings; ars is much more specific than just “trash/rude”, it denotes a particular subculture more or less equivalent to chavs (in Britain) and “New Russians”, and sakhi is more specific than just “healthy”, as it specifically means to not partake of intoxicants. The other three though I think are more semantic widenings, since they’re applicable in more general contexts than the Arabic ones: a fadikha is any awkward or laughable faux pas, not just one that causes scandal or social disgrace.

I'd say mole got narrowed twice, once into Spanish where it means an indigenous style of sauce and again into English where it means the kind from Puebla.

(Meanwhile salsa got narrowed once so it just refers to the Mexican styles of sauce rather than all sauces.)

I've never heard "mole" used in that sense. Interesting.

And "salsa" is a great example. It even fits the more narrow definition I talked above, words used for local meanings.

Chuma wrote:For example, people who live outside Malmö would certainly refer to Malmö itself as stan, "the city" in Swedish, but they may also refer to Copenhagen as byen, "the city" in Danish.

So you have two parallel cases of semantic narrowing in the same topolect, one involving a native word and one involving a borrowed word.

This would be analogous to, say, the narrowing of sauce to mean a particular kind of sauce (e.g. tomato sauce/ketchup in BE) and the simultaneous adoption of salsa to mean a particular kind of Mexican sauce.

When you say sauce without describing which, tomato or barbecue is usually assumed (although what is assumed can change if you mention a food the sauce is accompanying).

German uses Mail in the same way as Swedish.

Also, Shitstorm means specifically an online shit storm in comments or tweets etc.

Open Air means an open-air dance party/concert. Years ago, my friends were shocked when I didn't know what they meant by "open-air". They were like "You should know this. It's an English word!" and I was like "It's an adjective!? It's like asking me if a want to go to a draußen stattfindendes ... . I now know this word.

mèþru wrote:When you say sauce without describing which, tomato or barbecue is usually assumed (although what is assumed can change if you mention a food the sauce is accompanying).

Really? I'd find that highly context-sensitive. If I'm at an Italian restaurant, "sauce" unqualified is probably going to suggest a red sauce/marinara sauce, but if I'm at a burger joint then "sauce" unqualified is probably some mayo-based sauce. If I'm at a Middle Eastern restaurant I expect "sauce" is either yoghurt- or tahini-based; if I'm at an Indian restaurant I expect a sauce is curry- or ghee-based (and now I want paneer butter masala...). But if I'm not in a specific context, then the word "sauce" conveys absolutely nothing specific to me. Then again, maybe I'm weird, because I eat a lot of ethnic food and don't really care much for American food.

For me, "sauce" automatically suggests "tomato sauce" (marinara sauce or something like that, NOT ketchup). None of those other things Zaarin mentioned is a "sauce" in my idiolect (and neither is ketchup), and I wouldn't really even expect to see that word in any such restaurant/joint. Maybe that's some kind of influence from my dad's idiolect, though (I doubt it's Indian English, since I think there, "sauce" might mean ketchup by default due to influence from British English).

Yeah, sauce is never ketchup.

Nor for me, and I am a Brit.

Vijay wrote:For me, "sauce" automatically suggests "tomato sauce" (marinara sauce or something like that, NOT ketchup). None of those other things Zaarin mentioned is a "sauce" in my idiolect (and neither is ketchup), and I wouldn't really even expect to see that word in any such restaurant/joint. Maybe that's some kind of influence from my dad's idiolect, though (I doubt it's Indian English, since I think there, "sauce" might mean ketchup by default due to influence from British English).

That might explain why I've seen curry described as a "gravy" at Indian restaurants, whereas IMD gravy is specifically the thickened juice from cooking meat.

Zaarin wrote:

Vijay wrote:For me, "sauce" automatically suggests "tomato sauce" (marinara sauce or something like that, NOT ketchup). None of those other things Zaarin mentioned is a "sauce" in my idiolect (and neither is ketchup), and I wouldn't really even expect to see that word in any such restaurant/joint. Maybe that's some kind of influence from my dad's idiolect, though (I doubt it's Indian English, since I think there, "sauce" might mean ketchup by default due to influence from British English).

That might explain why I've seen curry described as a "gravy" at Indian restaurants, whereas IMD gravy is specifically the thickened juice from cooking meat.

When I was growing up, my dad argued that curry (or chicken curry at the very least) IS a gravy by that very definition, not a sauce. That's how we make any meat curry: we cook the meat with spices, onions, garlic, ginger, and a bit of oil (curry paste is optional), plus tomato paste at least in chicken curry, then add water and let it all simmer, so the meat effectively cooks in its own juices mixed with some other ingredients.

Zaarin wrote: That might explain why I've seen curry described as a "gravy" at Indian restaurants, whereas IMD gravy is specifically the thickened juice from cooking meat.

While most gravies are rather thick, that's mostly (as I understand it) because people frequently put flour in it. I've also had gravies (on mashed potatoes) that were more like just pouring juice.

And you also have sausage gravy, which isn't particularly the thickened sausage juice; it's mostly milk and flour with sausage mixed in.

It makes me think gravy is more "a liquid you pour on something solid", though I can't articulate a good distinction between it and sauce (for, e.g. strawberry sauce put on cheesecake)



While I can see curry as being a kind of gravy by that definition, I think of curries as being in their own category as a peer to gravy and sauce.

Also, ketchup is not a sauce. Neither is mayonnaise. Neither are dressings, as in the things you put on salads (except in the case where Thousand Island Dressing is used as a Special Sauce on cheeseburgers).

Hm. There are a lot of liquids we pour on solids.

Vijay wrote:

Zaarin wrote:

Vijay wrote:For me, "sauce" automatically suggests "tomato sauce" (marinara sauce or something like that, NOT ketchup). None of those other things Zaarin mentioned is a "sauce" in my idiolect (and neither is ketchup), and I wouldn't really even expect to see that word in any such restaurant/joint. Maybe that's some kind of influence from my dad's idiolect, though (I doubt it's Indian English, since I think there, "sauce" might mean ketchup by default due to influence from British English).

That might explain why I've seen curry described as a "gravy" at Indian restaurants, whereas IMD gravy is specifically the thickened juice from cooking meat.

When I was growing up, my dad argued that curry (or chicken curry at the very least) IS a gravy by that very definition, not a sauce. That's how we make any meat curry: we cook the meat with spices, onions, garlic, ginger, and a bit of oil (curry paste is optional), plus tomato paste at least in chicken curry, then add water and let it all simmer, so the meat effectively cooks in its own juices mixed with some other ingredients.

Interesting to know. I love Indian curry, but I've only made Thai-style curry before, which of course has a coconut milk base. But I've also seen, for example, butter masala described as "gravy," where obviously no meat is involved (at least not in the context of paneer butter masala).