zompist bboard

My question specifically involves Europe but it could apply to elsewhere. Boards of directors of major companies often elect independent directors who have no affiliation with the company. These directors often come from different countries than the home country of the company. For example, AP Møller-Mærsk is a major Danish company. Among its independent board members are Dutch and German nationals.

Taking this example, when the board meets, in what language would business be conducted? Would it be Danish because the company is Danish? Some of these members are new and may not speak Danish (some CVs I googled suggested some don't speak the language of the company's home country). Do they use a vehicular language like English or German? Do they just provide translators? Do they just force board members to learn the language as fast as possible despite possible communication breakdowns in the process? Are they perhaps multilingual, self-translating among members when needed?

How does this all work? These people surely need to express themselves clearly in their work.

In every company I can think of with members who spoke different languages, business was always conducted in English.

Vijay wrote:In every company I can think of with members who spoke different languages, business was always conducted in English.

So even in say, Norway, business was conducted in English?

Viktor77 wrote:

Vijay wrote:In every company I can think of with members who spoke different languages, business was always conducted in English.

So even in say, Norway, business was conducted in English?

I don't know of any companies in Norway, but I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be. Most Norwegians apparently speak it, after all (and are likely more comfortable speaking it to foreigners than they would be with speaking Norwegian to them).

From what I can tell, some Swedish companies have English as their work language for the whole company.

Qwynegold wrote:From what I can tell, some Swedish companies have English as their work language for the whole company.

Even French companies do. Iirc even Renault have declared English their work language, at least for management.

But it's so sweet that Viktor thinks that not being able to communicate anything meaningful would actually noticeably impede the "work" of non-executive directors...

I work for an American company, but none of the people in our office is American, and I don't think there are any non-American anglophones at our location either. Most of my coworkers are Belgian (this being Brussels), Dutch or French, and then there are others from all over Europe.

The language of our meetings depends entirely of those who are present, and what languages they're comfortable with. There's a good chance you'll be in a room with mostly French speakers or people who speak French well, but I'd say 80% of the time everyone defaults to English in a mixed group setting. Smaller discussions within the bigger group may be in another language, depending on the speaker.

But yeah, this is very common in companies with an international character. The local language will be used among those who speak it, and you'll speak your native language to someone who speaks the same language of course, but most communication that's intended for a larger audience will be in (often shitty) English.

Can't someone create an IAL or something for this purpose? Businessese?

To be honest, sometimes I wonder if we could consider European Business English a pidgin language: it uses English-based vocabulary, but grammar and expressions from different European languages.

I'm joking, of course. Although often speakers of European Business English have an easier time understanding each other (despite different linguistic backgrounds) than actual native English speakers, so it's definitely become a thing of its own.

Viktor77 wrote:

Vijay wrote:In every company I can think of with members who spoke different languages, business was always conducted in English.

So even in say, Norway, business was conducted in English?

I'm not on any boards of directors, but I'd be extremely surprised to hear of people at Norwegian companies expecting foreign board members to speak Norwegian at meetings. When you speak a language that has little to no relevance outside your country you don't really go around expecting people to cater to you in that way, and I doubt you'll find any Norwegians in such positions that don't speak fluent English. If the board members in question are foreign born but live in Norway and speak some amount of Norwegian it might be a different matter, but even then people might prefer to use English to reduce the risk of misunderstandings.

If we're talking about day to day interactions with other regular employees, my main experience with cross-lingual communication is working quite closely with an Indian coworker at my old job. I think she was taking Norwegian classes in the evening, but our interactions were 100% in English. Other people at the company tried to speak Norwegian with her a little more than I did, but mostly just to give her some practice. I'm pretty sure this is the norm. However, if the person in question has lived in the country for many years people's linguistic expectations may start to change.

At that same job I also sometimes participated in phone meetings with Swedes, and while I usually don't find Swedish too difficult, the typical combination of bad audio quality and lack of visual cues often made me wish we were speaking English instead.

din wrote:The language of our meetings depends entirely of those who are present, and what languages they're comfortable with. There's a good chance you'll be in a room with mostly French speakers or people who speak French well, but I'd say 80% of the time everyone defaults to English in a mixed group setting. Smaller discussions within the bigger group may be in another language, depending on the speaker.

This makes a lot of sense, meaning communication is more or less mixed. Do you participate in French conversations in French? This is a side question, but since this is related to my research interest, is there any presence of Dutch in these meetings?

din wrote:To be honest, sometimes I wonder if we could consider European Business English a pidgin language: it uses English-based vocabulary, but grammar and expressions from different European languages.

I'm joking, of course. Although often speakers of European Business English have an easier time understanding each other (despite different linguistic backgrounds) than actual native English speakers, so it's definitely become a thing of its own.

This doesn't surprise me as I heard some of it when I was in Europe. There is a whole concept called EU English that I've read about it. The lattermost point you made though does intrigue me. Do you think you would be able to find a good clip online of the sort of business English exchange that might actually be more difficult for a native English speaker?

Magb wrote:I'm not on any boards of directors, but I'd be extremely surprised to hear of people at Norwegian companies expecting foreign board members to speak Norwegian at meetings. When you speak a language that has little to no relevance outside your country you don't really go around expecting people to cater to you in that way, and I doubt you'll find any Norwegians in such positions that don't speak fluent English. If the board members in question are foreign born but live in Norway and speak some amount of Norwegian it might be a different matter, but even then people might prefer to use English to reduce the risk of misunderstandings.

If we're talking about day to day interactions with other regular employees, my main experience with cross-lingual communication is working quite closely with an Indian coworker at my old job. I think she was taking Norwegian classes in the evening, but our interactions were 100% in English. Other people at the company tried to speak Norwegian with her a little more than I did, but mostly just to give her some practice. I'm pretty sure this is the norm. However, if the person in question has lived in the country for many years people's linguistic expectations may start to change.

At that same job I also sometimes participated in phone meetings with Swedes, and while I usually don't find Swedish too difficult, the typical combination of bad audio quality and lack of visual cues often made me wish we were speaking English instead.

I may often look at things too much from the sociolinguistic position of the French state (see below with the Toubon law), but what surprises me about this embrace of English in major Norwegian (or Danish, or even France with Renault as someone earlier said, etc.) businesses is that people would eventually see this as the "encroachment of English" on their native language. I may be overextending this a little because I'm American, but some of these companies seem to be crown jewels of their national economy, Statoil in Norway, Renault in France, Maersk in Denmark. Statoil has foreign board directors from the Netherlands, Italy, and Australia. Renault from the Netherlands, and Maersk from the Netherlands and Germany. Given that these are major economic engines of their national economies, infiltration of English into such companies' daily communication strikes me as something that could be bad optics. I think of a major US company doing business in Spanish and how that could be exploited by politicians, etc. But maybe I overestimate how much people care.

Except in France because France has laws (the Toubon law, for example) to get rid of English in the business environment. Though learning this law is not effective would not surprise me at all and I know that, to some extent, there was a lot of pushback from companies after its passing.

This doesn't surprise me as I heard some of it when I was in Europe. There is a whole concept called EU English that I've read about it. The lattermost point you made though does intrigue me. Do you think you would be able to find a good clip online of the sort of business English exchange that might actually be more difficult for a native English speaker?

Wasn't there a fragment of a Polish person's work in English posted some time ago, as an example of what the poster perceived as bad English?

I may often look at things too much from the sociolinguistic position of the French state (see below with the Toubon law), but what surprises me about this embrace of English in major Norwegian (or Danish, or even France with Renault as someone earlier said, etc.) businesses is that people would eventually see this as the "encroachment of English" on their native language.

Well, I don't see how it would count as “encroachment of English on [my native lang]” if I am not using [my native lang] when communicating with these people. English and [my native lang] are two separate domains, you use one to communicate with your compatriots and the other to communicate with foreigners.

If anything, it only helps to keep your native language pure and “unencroached upon” by other people.

It also helps when having a good education is well perceived (and knowing a foreign language fluently enough to communicate with foreigners is a certain sign of good education).

Viktor77 wrote:I may often look at things too much from the sociolinguistic position of the French state (see below with the Toubon law), but what surprises me about this embrace of English in major Norwegian (or Danish, or even France with Renault as someone earlier said, etc.) businesses is that people would eventually see this as the "encroachment of English" on their native language.

To me, the encroachment of English on most people's native languages is already a done deal and long has been. English has long been established as the means of international communication, and this probably won't change for hundreds of years. (Of course, people do have other means of dealing multilingualism anyway, but I still see this as a destructive trend that unfortunately just won't go away anytime soon).

Viktor77 wrote:I may often look at things too much from the sociolinguistic position of the French state (see below with the Toubon law), but what surprises me about this embrace of English in major Norwegian (or Danish, or even France with Renault as someone earlier said, etc.) businesses is that people would eventually see this as the "encroachment of English" on their native language.

I'm sure some people feel that way, but I think most Scandinavians are fairly pragmatic about foreign languages. As in so many other places, bilingualism has been the norm in Scandinavia for a long time. In the past it was typically French or German -- now it's mostly English.

Viktor77 wrote:I may be overextending this a little because I'm American, but some of these companies seem to be crown jewels of their national economy, Statoil in Norway, Renault in France, Maersk in Denmark. Statoil has foreign board directors from the Netherlands, Italy, and Australia. Renault from the Netherlands, and Maersk from the Netherlands and Germany. Given that these are major economic engines of their national economies, infiltration of English into such companies' daily communication strikes me as something that could be bad optics. I think of a major US company doing business in Spanish and how that could be exploited by politicians, etc. But maybe I overestimate how much people care.

I think you're overestimating how much people care. But if anything, the people who care would probably be more concerned with the presence of foreign stakeholders to begin with. The language issue would be secondary.

I agree with Magb. We don't care about the language, but we might care about foreign influence over businesses.

Scandinavians speak so much English that it's hardly even a foreign language; language learning experts apparently think of learning English in Scandinavia as "native environment", or whatever the expression is.

It's an interesting situation when Scandinavians meet; we often try to talk in a mix of our native languages. My dad works for such a company, and he says they develop their own mixed-language jargon. In my experience, people often feel that they should be able to understand each other, but it's hard at times. Then, the moment a non-Scandinavian enters, we're all relieved to switch to English. Much to the chagrin of immigrants trying to learn the local language.

Reflecting on my time in Scandinavia I'm beginning to see what you mean. I just remembered one of our hosts in Denmark, a nice young couple, who actually asked us if it was okay if they spoke Danish to each other while we were around. I was flabbergasted that anyone would so much as think that would be an issue.

I also recall a Swedish girl we stayed with telling me that when she worked in Norway she would use the sort of compromise variety of language that you all have discussed above. She never mentioned anything about it being stressful though, just that people knew immediately she wasn't Norwegian, but they could communicate nonetheless.*

*Her English was fascinating, too. She probably spoke the best English of and non-native speaker I met in Europe (with the exception of Din). But she overused the expression "I reckon" which constantly struck me as bizarre. She would speak in otherwise standard English then throw in "I reckon" like she had heard too many Southerners speak English but only imitated one single expression.

I worked for a few years in an international business setting in Hong Kong. This is how it works:

* If two or more native speakers of Cantonese talk to one another, they speak Cantonese.
* If two or more native speakers of Mandarin talk to one another, they speak Mandarin.
[EDIT: an exception to the above rule is if you have two native speakers of Cantonese (or Mandarin) who are more comfortable in English, possibly because Cantonese (or Mandarin) is their home and early childhood language but English is their school and social language. In this case, they will speak to each other in English, even though they are also both fluent speakers of Cantonese (or Mandarin).]
* If a mixed group of Cantonese and Mandarin speakers (or speakers of neither) talk to one another, the tendency is for everyone to speak English.
** This means that if a Cantonese speaker joins a group of Mandarin speakers, or a Mandarin speaker joins a group of Cantonese speakers, the conversation will shift into English. And if that person leaves, the language will shift back.
** There are exceptions to this. For example some people are fluent in both Cantonese and Mandarin, and can function as either under the patterns above. Sometimes you have a Cantonese or Mandarin speaker who doesn't speak English (this is kind of rare in an international business setting in Hong Kong) in which case the rules above would shift to accommodate them. But regardless, there is a strong tendency to default to English.

So, to answer the question about the mixed board of directors - assuming it's one with a mixed membership, the language used will be English.

To throw out a completely hypothetical example, let's say there is one Cantonese speaker who understands English, one Mandarin speaker who understands English, one Mandarin speaker who is bad in English, and one person who speaks neither Mandarin or Cantonese (let's say a French or German speaker who speaks English). The meeting will be in English, and someone will translate for the Mandarin-only speaker.

Also, the above rules apply to speech only. Generally, all written work communication is in English. In other words, two native speakers of Cantonese (or of Mandarin) will always write work emails to each other in English (even informal English), but when they pick up the phone or meet in person (and talk about that very same topic), they will speak in Cantonese (Mandarin), even formal Cantonese (Mandarin),

I must also add that the above is specific to an international business setting in Hong Kong. A more local Hong Kong business would have drastically different patterns, as would a company that's based in mainland China but does business in Hong Kong..

mèþru wrote:

IME it's not "you learned a bit of Japanese! That is so polite!" it's more like "OHMIGOD YOU KNOW JAPANESE SO WELL *jaw drops* *faints* *moans* YOU ARE SUCH A GENIUS HOW DID YOU LEARN JAPANESE SO WELL YOU SOUND SO JAPANESE I CAN HELP YOU PRACTICE MAYBE!!!!!!1"

And if that sounds extreme, just try saying something in Malayalam to one of us Malayalees sometime.

AP Møller-Mærsk, Renault, Statoil - these are all huge multi-nationals. Is anyone really surprised they conduct all their business in English?


JAL

Viktor77 wrote:
I may often look at things too much from the sociolinguistic position of the French state (see below with the Toubon law), but what surprises me about this embrace of English in major Norwegian (or Danish, or even France with Renault as someone earlier said, etc.) businesses is that people would eventually see this as the "encroachment of English" on their native language. I may be overextending this a little because I'm American, but some of these companies seem to be crown jewels of their national economy, Statoil in Norway, Renault in France, Maersk in Denmark. Statoil has foreign board directors from the Netherlands, Italy, and Australia. Renault from the Netherlands, and Maersk from the Netherlands and Germany. Given that these are major economic engines of their national economies, infiltration of English into such companies' daily communication strikes me as something that could be bad optics. I think of a major US company doing business in Spanish and how that could be exploited by politicians, etc. But maybe I overestimate how much people care.

Except in France because France has laws (the Toubon law, for example) to get rid of English in the business environment. Though learning this law is not effective would not surprise me at all and I know that, to some extent, there was a lot of pushback from companies after its passing.

I don't think the Toubon law really does much - actually I checked and it turns out doing much about regulating the use of English would be unconstitutional - it would violate Freedom of speech.

I've worked for French multinationals. English is the work language for anything involving non-French speakers. It's a sensible policy that doesn't really raise any objections: you can't reasonably expect people from Hong Kong to speak French...
People do object to companies using English as a work language in all contexts (which I think is what Renault tried to do; they had to back off quickly), even amongst French speakers.

I think of a major US company doing business in Spanish and how that could be exploited by politicians, etc.

It's a prestige thing. The closest equivalent would be a French company doing business in Arabic - that would cause an outrage.

(Re: the comic, personally, I do feel it's a bit rude of British or American tourists to expect that French people will speak English as a matter of course. But that's another debate entirely.)

Ars Lande wrote:(Personally, I do feel it's a bit rude of Brits or Americans to expect that French people will speak English as a matter of course. But that's another debate entirely.)

What if Germans or Spaniards would expect it? Does that make it less rude? Especially since expecting someone else speaks French is imho also pretty rude.


JAL

jal wrote:

Ars Lande wrote:(Personally, I do feel it's a bit rude of Brits or Americans to expect that French people will speak English as a matter of course. But that's another debate entirely.)

What if Germans or Spaniards would expect it? Does that make it less rude? Especially since expecting someone else speaks French is imho also pretty rude.


JAL

No, I don't expect tourist to know French, of course. Asking if people speak English, or saying bonjour and merci is more than enough.
IME it's mostly Americans tourists that are annoying about it. To be fair, I live in Paris, where people can be, let's say, a little unfriendly so a certain degree of exasperation on the part of American tourists is understandable.

Ars Lande wrote:Asking if people speak English, or saying bonjour and merci is more than enough.

I don't do that anymore. I just smile sweetly and ask them, "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?"