Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
Post Reply
User avatar
alice
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Three of them

Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by alice »

I realised this morning that the only colour words in English which take the (inchoative?) -en suffix are "black", "white", and "red"; you don't find *"brownen" or "*yellowen", for example. It can't be a coincidence that these are the first three colour words predicted by Berlin and Kay. How productive are derivations from colour words in other languages? Do they fit the Berlin and Kay predictions?
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.

Magb
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:42 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Magb »

In Norwegian you can add the inchoative -ne to black (svartne/sortne), white (hvitne/kvitne), red (rødne/raudne), blue (blåne), yellow (gulne) and brown (brune). The most notable gap seems to be green, but the rare -ke suffix can be found on the archaic grønke. I should add that some of these verbs are rarely used, and that unlike their English counterparts the Norwegian verbs are mostly used intransitively, i.e. "become red", not "make red", whereas the English verbs are more flexible.

I think the gaps in English are better explained by phonological factors. "Yellowen" is awkward because the stem is polysyllabic. "Brownen" and "greenen" have a final n in the stem, making them harder to pronounce -- especially for people who delete the schwa in -en. "Bluen" is also a little tricky because the stem ends in a vowel. Not that any of that is insurmountable, but I think it's a better bet than the color hierarchy.

User avatar
Ryusenshi
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:31 am
Location: Montrouge, France

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Ryusenshi »

In French, the -ir suffix can go with several colors. White (blanc/blanchir), black (noir/noircir), yellow (jaune/jaunir), red (rouge/rougir), blue (bleu/bleuir), green (vert/verdir), brown (brun/brunir, although not with the more common marron), pink (rose/rosir). It also works with some less common colors, such as crimson (cramoisi/cramoisir), ginger (roux/roussir). I can add "pale" (pâle/pâlir, also blême/blêmir).

However, some other colors take the -er suffix instead: grey (gris/griser), azure (azur/azurer), golden (or/dorer), purple (violet/violacer), orange (orange/oranger).

User avatar
ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:11 pm
Location: Łódź

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ »

Polish:
Black - czernieć, czernić
White - bieleć, bielić
Red - *czerwienieć, czerwienić
Green - zielenieć, *zielenić
Yellow - żółknąć, *żółcić
Blue - *niebieszczeć, *niebieszczyć
Brown - brązowieć, *brązowić
Pink - różowieć, różowić
Grey - szarzeć, szarzyć
Purple - purpurowieć, -
Orange - *pomarańczowieć, *pomarańczowić
The first is "get ...", the second "make ...". I marked possible ad hoc formation with asterisks, some of these unmarked occur for me only in derivations such as "zaczerwienić się" (get red, perfect aspect) or "sczernieć" (get black, perfect aspect).
I think the same is for other Poles, but remember not to trust me for 100%, these are only my feelings.
In Budapest:
- Hey mate, are you hung-a-ry?

Awilum
Niš
Niš
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 6:41 am

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Awilum »

German has schwärzen (from schwarz ‘black’), weißen (from weiß ‘white’), röten (from rot ‘red’), grünen (from grün ‘green’), blauen (from blau ‘blue’), bräunen (from braun ‘brown’), grauen (from grau ‘grey’). For gelb ‘yellow’ there is no *gelben but there is a verb vergilben. For golden ‘golden’ and silbern ‘silver’ there is also only vergolden and versilbern but not *goldenen or *silbernen.

None of those patterns are productive anymore and in fact practically all of those verbs are only used with certain idiomatic meanings or as part of fixed idiomatic expressions and not in the general sense of ‘turn/become a certain colour’.

Schwärzen (tr.) is probably the one where the general meaning of ‘to turn something black’ is preserved the most. Nevertheless, I would say it is primarily used in the meaning of ‘redacted’, ie when parts of a document have been blackened out.

Weißen (tr.) is very rarely used and where it is used only in the sense of ‘to paint something in white’, especially things like walls, etc.

Röten (refl.) is used for skin and other body parts, eg meine Haut rötet sich ‘my skin reddens [because I ate something I'm allergic to or am getting a sunburn or for a similar reason]’.

Grünen (itr.) is only used with vegetation in the sense of becoming green by developing green parts like leaves.

Blauen (itr.) is used only poetically, eg in der Himmel blaut ‘the sky is blue’.

Bräunen (tr. or refl.) is used primarily, but not exclusively, for getting a tan, eg ich bräune mich ‘I am tanning myself’.

Grauen has several meanings. Grauen (impersonal or refl.) means ‘to be afraid of’, as for example in mir graut es vor morgen or ich graue mich vor morgen which both mean ‘I'm afraid of tomorrow’. The fixed expression der Morgen graut simply means ‘it dawns’.

Vergilben (itr.) is the process of materials like paper or certain plastics turning yellow with age.

Vergolden and versilbern can mean simply ‘to gold-plate’ and ‘to silver-plate’ but also ‘to pay somebody (very well) for something’ (in the case of vergolden) or ‘to sell something’ (in the case of versilbern).

Further, there are derivations like erröten ‘to blush’, ergrauen ‘to turn grey (with age)’ (ie to get grey hair), anschwärzen ‘to snitch on somebody’, or anbräunen ‘to cook/roast something until it is lightly brown’.

The closest to productive derivational morphemes with that meaning in German would probably be the suffixes -ieren or -isieren. One could coin terms like orangieren (from orange), volettieren or violettisieren (from violett), purpurieren (from purpur ‘purple’) or even magentaisieren (from magenta). However, even for those examples a realisticu usage would only be as technical terms for specific processes which involve turning something orange, magenta, or purple but not as a general word for turning someting into a given colour.

Also, while cyanisieren and türkisieren exist, they don't derive from the colour terms cyan and türkis ‘turquoise’ but from the chemical and Türkei ‘Turkey’. Türkisieren does not mean ‘to turn turquoise’ but ‘to Turkicize’ (parallel to ‘to Anglicize’ or ‘to Germanize’).

Whether German fits the sequence given by Berlin and Kay is hard to say, for two reasons. On the one hand, it has colour verbs for all stages I—VII, even though the verb for yellow (stage IV) falls outside the normal pattern. On the other hand, blauen (stage V) is only marginally existant, while bräunen (stage VI) and grauen (stage VII) are used frequently.

User avatar
KathTheDragon
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2139
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
Location: Brittania

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by KathTheDragon »

alice wrote:I realised this morning that the only colour words in English which take the (inchoative?) -en suffix are "black", "white", and "red"; you don't find *"brownen" or "*yellowen", for example. It can't be a coincidence that these are the first three colour words predicted by Berlin and Kay. How productive are derivations from colour words in other languages? Do they fit the Berlin and Kay predictions?
Actually, "pinken" is another example of this derivation.

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Salmoneus »

KathTheDragon wrote:
alice wrote:I realised this morning that the only colour words in English which take the (inchoative?) -en suffix are "black", "white", and "red"; you don't find *"brownen" or "*yellowen", for example. It can't be a coincidence that these are the first three colour words predicted by Berlin and Kay. How productive are derivations from colour words in other languages? Do they fit the Berlin and Kay predictions?
Actually, "pinken" is another example of this derivation.
I think I've heard "golden" too - and certainly "engolden".
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

User avatar
Chuma
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Hyperborea

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Chuma »

In Swedish, I've heard at least black, white, red, and yellow. They're all mostly used in rather particular constructs.

svartna "blacken" could be used more generally, but most commonly in the expression det svartnade för ögonen, literally "it blackened for the eyes", used when a person is near passing out, or as an expression of rage.

vitna "whiten" is often used in the expression hennes knogar vitnade, "her knuckles whitened", and sometimes about faces, but there and in most other contexts I think blekna "(become) pale, fade, whiten" would be more common.

gulna "become yellow" is mostly used about old paper.

rodna "redden", with an interesting sort of reverse-umlaut from röd "red", idiomatically only means "blush".

I guess blåna "bluen" is also occasionally heard, or some forms of it.

Another interesting word is grönska, from grön "green", meaning something like "be green, flourish, bloom". Although they're all intransitive, it has a very different feel to it, somehow more active. I'm having some trouble when I try to translate the old summer hymn nu grönskar det, literally "now greens it", where it's used as a (semantically) zero-valent verb.

Speaking of which, the set of transitive forms are different: svärta "make black", bleka "bleach, make pale" (from blek "pale", as opposed to blekna as above), and... that's about it, I think?

Cedh
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:30 am
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Cedh »

Awilum wrote:German has schwärzen (from schwarz ‘black’), weißen (from weiß ‘white’), röten (from rot ‘red’), grünen (from grün ‘green’), blauen (from blau ‘blue’), bräunen (from braun ‘brown’), grauen (from grau ‘grey’). For gelb ‘yellow’ there is no *gelben but there is a verb vergilben. For golden ‘golden’ and silbern ‘silver’ there is also only vergolden and versilbern but not *goldenen or *silbernen. [...]
For me, grünen sounds poetically archaic (the derivation ergrünen a bit less so); grauen is semantically completely disconnected from the color (but the derivation ergrauen isn't), and *blauen is ungrammatical. (It feels like the corresponding verb would have to be *bläuen, which doesn't exist either, although there's the derived einbläuen "teach sth. to sb. by force", probably by association with blauer Fleck "hematoma".)

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by linguoboy »

Welsh appears to have a full set: duo, gwynnu, cochi, rhuddo, melynu, glasu, gwyrddu/gwyrddio, brownio, llwydio. But that's just working off dictionary entries. I have no idea how restricted any of these might be in actual usage.

zompist
Boardlord
Boardlord
Posts: 3368
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Location: In the den
Contact:

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by zompist »

Spanish: just going off dictionaries (I will ask the native speaker when she gets home). It starts out pretty strong:

azul blue > azular(se); also azulear be bluish
rojo red > enrojecer(se)
blanco white - blanquear
negro black - negrear
amarillo yellow - amarillear
pardo brown > pardear
oscuro dark > oscurecer

Also note bronce (bronze) > broncear (bronze, also tan), oro (gold) > dorar, plata (silver) > platear (or argentar)

I can't find anything for rosado (pink), marron (chestnut brown), moreno (dark brown), púrpura (purple), gris (grey), morado (purple).

zompist
Boardlord
Boardlord
Posts: 3368
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Location: In the den
Contact:

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by zompist »

My wife gave some slightly different words: emblanquecer, ennegrecer, amarillar, plus amoratar (for morado).

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by linguoboy »

Isn't rosado just the past participle of rozar?

zompist
Boardlord
Boardlord
Posts: 3368
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Location: In the den
Contact:

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by zompist »

Rosado is from rosa. There was a Latin rosātus; I don't see (from quick searching) any evidence that there was ever a related verb.

A couple online sources say rozar is from Lt ruptiāre.

User avatar
Imralu
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1640
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:14 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Imralu »

It's interesting if you think about the colours that appear as last names in English. There's Black, White, Brown, Green, Grey, Gray ... I've never heard of anyone with the last name Red, Blue, Yellow, Orange or Purple ... there seems to be a preference for duller colours.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Salmoneus »

Imralu wrote:It's interesting if you think about the colours that appear as last names in English. There's Black, White, Brown, Green, Grey, Gray ... I've never heard of anyone with the last name Red, Blue, Yellow, Orange or Purple ... there seems to be a preference for duller colours.
I think there are some "Red"s. There are certainly plenty of "Ruddy"s.

I don't think it's anything to do with dullness, though. Black, White, Brown, Grey and sometimes Silver are descriptive names from hair colour and complexion (though ironically some 'Black' was actually originally 'Blake', i.e. with pale complexion). Silver and Gold are occupational names for silversmiths and goldsmiths, or more generally for rich people.

Green is the unusual one. Apparently it's for people who lived on or near the green.

There's also Pink. Don't know the origin - could be complexion, but the word also has many other meanings, so who knows.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

User avatar
Vlürch
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:42 am
Location: Finland

Re: Sunburnt penguins (black, white, red...)

Post by Vlürch »

Finnish can do that with every colour, although it's rare for a lot of colours and there's sometimes no clear difference between it happening passively or it being caused by something/someone actively except in context. It's not always literal, either. One example is "ruskistaa" and "ruskistua" from "ruskea" (brown), said of food and meaning pretty much "to make crispy" and "to become crispy" respectively. It's also worth noting that many are rare, like "sinistää" (to make blue) or "sinistyä" (to become blue), but "sinertää" (to be/become/make blue/bluish) is common. Also, "punastua" (to blush; literally "to become red"), is common but never refers to anything except a person blushing; "punertaa" (to be/become/make red/reddish) is common, too. "Punertua" (to become red/reddish) is also a thing, etc. I'm actually not sure if "punata" (to make red) is common or rare, but I've personally probably heard it only a few times. "Vihertää" means both "to make green" and "to be/become green/greenish". "Mustua" (to become black) and "mustata" (to make black; tarnish; blemish) have a clear distinction, and "mustaantua" exists as well, which is basically not as thorough a blackening as "mustua".

I'd never thought about this before, but seriously, the colour verbing in Finnish is ridiculous. Just a few example sentences:
Lehdet punertuvat = Leaves become red.
Lehdet punertavat = Leaves are reddish.
Lehdet punertavat puita = Leaves make trees look (more) red.
Syksy punertaa lehtiä = Autumn makes leaves red/reddish.
Lehdet punertavat syksyllä = In the autumn, leaves are/look red/reddish.
Lehdet punertuvat syksyllä = In the autumn, leaves become red/reddish.

Post Reply