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zompist bboard • View topic - Nostratic, Eurasiatic, Mitian, ...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:31 am 
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Indeed, the "Haida and Na-Dene" thread is derailed, and I expect it to be locked by the mods soon, thanks to Vlürch's "Indo-Uralic can't be true because it would mean that our noble Finnish race would be related to the Swedish and Russian barbarians who oppressed us all that time" nonsense. And the discussion of Indo-Uralic of course belongs here.

Just a brief comment: AFAIK, Japanese namae is a compound, written with two kanji, and it wouldn't suirprise me if there were on'yomi involved, i.e. borrowings from Chinese.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:54 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:37 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:43 am 
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While we're discussing the "name" word, it's interesting to note that Tocharian has *ñem, pointing to a "post-laryngealistic" *nēmn̥, which is a closer match for Uralic *nimi.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:10 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:13 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:48 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:03 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:50 am 
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I do think that there is probably a core-Eurasiatic family with at least Indo-Uralic and micro-Altaic. But it will be very difficult to prove something like that. We do have a good sense of what the proto-languages of Indo-European and Uralic were like 5000 years ago. We don't have that for Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic. And there are many clues that IE and Uralic are more closely related to each other than to the rest of Eurasiatic. So to me it makes sense to compare the two and see what we can get from that.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:21 pm 
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I concur with you that IE and Uralic are probably more closely related to each other than to Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic. It is uncertain, though, whether the latter three form a valid node or not. Turkic looks as if it was closer to Indo-Uralic than the other two, but that may be deceptive (the main point is Turkic's personal endings, which Mongolic and Tungusic lack, but that's probably just a shared retention which doesn't prove anything).

The Yukaghir, Chukotko-Kamchatkan and Eskimo-Aleut languages, which I also consider parts of the Mitian macrofamily, are another matter. Eskimo-Aleut looks especially close to Uralic, but that's IMHO probably just due to the conservativism of these two families. Yukaghir is often held to be the closest living kin of Uralic, but the lexical resemblances between the two look more like borrowings from a Samoyedic or Para-Samoyedic language into Yukaghir, and the morphologies are quite different (though Yukaghir looks undeniably Mitian). Chukotko-Kamchatkan is weird, and Fortescue has dropped it from the Uralo-Siberian family (U, Y, ChK, EA) he had proposed in his 1998 book Language Relations across Bering Strait, in an article published in the Lingua journal in 2011 (I think), proposing a connection to Nivkh instead.

Fortescue's reconstruction of Proto-Uralo-Siberian may actually give a good idea of what Proto-Mitian could have looked like, a better one IMHO than either Dolgopolsky's or Bomhard's Proto-Nostratic, which both include data from Afroasiatic and Dravidian, entities which IMHO probably are nowhere close to Mitian, resulting, among other problems, in a bloated phoneme inventory (Bomhard reconstructs 50 consonants, while most Mitian languages are somewhere around 20, with the PIE system probably beefed up by rather recent changes).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:05 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:57 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:33 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:42 am 
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My own hyper-speculative theory is that mV/tV were originally demonstratives. And a path to 1st/2nd person via possession (this thing (near me) -> my thing; that thing(near you) -> your thing) would fit in nicely with that. The "determinativity" contrast in Uralic also has parallels with the IE stative. But it is hard to reconstruct a paradigm from these second sets of verbal endings.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Yes, I consider it plausible that the "Southeast Uralic" (i.e., Hungarian and Selkup) indefinite conjugation was cognate to the IE perfect/middle conjugation, though only the 1st person singular forms match well (the 2nd person is different in Hungarian and Selkup, and neither form looks like the IE one). The underlying system may have been an active-stative one. The "Northeast Uralic" (Northern Samoyedic and Khanty-Mansi) pattern, where object number but not object person is marked on the transitive verb, and which Seefloth reconstructs for Uralo-Siberian on the ground of a very similar paradigm in Eskimo-Aleut, may be a residue of an earlier Indo-Uralic/Proto-Mitian bipersonal transitive conjugation of the kind usually found in active-stative languages.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 pm 
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I think that Pre-PIE was an active-stative language.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:11 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:33 am 
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Highly likely.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:59 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:00 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:10 am 
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I think the macro-families of Africa should be split until there is conclusive evidence of relations - that goes to Atlantic–Congo as well.

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