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zompist bboard • View topic - Nostratic, Eurasiatic, Mitian, ...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:36 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:46 am 
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The shared drift that happens in Sprachbunds can also produce lots of shared changes. Standard Average European has features in it that were definitely not inherited from PIE, the ancestor of most of the languages in this Sprachbund. For example, the definite and indefinite articles and the periphrastic perfects with 'to have' were all later innovations that spread within a West-European Sprachbund.

One of the things that we often don't realize is that PIE is the only 'Mitian' language that has been reconstructed based on languages that were written down 2500-3500 years ago. How would PIE look if we had to reconstruct it based on the languages of the last 1000-500 years? Would we still be able to reconstruct ablaut and the laryngeals without Ancient Greek, Hittite, Tocharian, Sanskrit and Avestan? Maybe some of the typological 'strangeness' of PIE with the Mitian languages is because it was reconstructed from languages that were written down before being affected by a shared drift away from such features.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:56 am 
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East and South Africa was probably like that before the Bantu Expansion, with Sandawe and Hadza being notable examples.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:02 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:09 pm 
Smeric
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Is there actually good evidence for Niger-Congo?

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:44 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:24 pm 
Smeric
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Yeah, I've definitely heard of problems with the relationship between Semitic and Egyptian from people who IIRC have worked on both. Like you said, I've also heard that it's not yet clear that the similarities aren't areal rather than genetic.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:02 pm 
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What about Semitic and Berber?

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:41 pm 
Smeric
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I think that's also supposed to be problematic according to the people I've heard from about this because they've been in contact for a very long time.

I dunno, I'm just a shameless splitter, I guess. :P


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:56 am 
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:14 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Last edited by Porphyrogenitos on Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:49 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:09 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:55 am 
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I'm very definitely not a lumper. My opinion on Indo-Uralic is that it's intriguing, worth investigating, but probably won't amount to anything provable.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:12 am 
Smeric
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Most of what I do on this thread is complain about methodology and lack of evidence, so maybe I should just do as Vijay

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:28 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:41 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:09 pm 
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The apparent lack of diversity among Amerind people's may be an illusion due to1)the founding populations do no match neatly to extant tribes in Asian
2l they have commingledwith each other
3l many tribes are small and difficult to place on a genetic tree since one family can have a disproportionate effect on the genetic identity of the whole.
I don't believe there was ever a stage at which all if the Amerind people's spoke the same langusge.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:11 pm 
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My issue with Amerind is that, even if it's true (which is very far from proven simply by genetic evidence), it seems to me that it would have been at a time depth that is utterly unprovable. Even younger proposed macro-families in North America like Hokan (generally disregarded), Gulf (now generally limited to Natchez-Muskogean), Penutian (partially accepted), and Macro-Siouan (Mithun describes it as "promising") have been difficult to prove simply because the recorded material on Native American languages is A) young and B) often scanty. The theory is further hurt by the fact that its biggest proponent is Greenberg, whose groupings within his proposed macrofamily are certainly...creative.

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