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zompist bboard • View topic - Japanese sample in Advanced Language Construction

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:58 pm 
Lebom
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While discussing the use of logograms and syllabic characters in Japanese writing, Zompist provides an example from a manga. Ignoring the native writing system since it's irrelevant to my question, the sample goes:

Atashi wa oneechan to chigatte otoko nanka, daik-kirai na no.
1s topic elder.sister with differing boy* and.so.on / big distasteful is
"I don't share big sister's opinions about boys and such; I hate them."

It has always confused me how the gloss yields the translation, since the Japanese text is missing some critical details. It says nothing about opinions, only that the speaker differs from an elder sister in some unspecified manner. Nor does it specify the object of daikkirai (or more precisely its subject since it serves as a predicate). For that matter, the sentence appears ungrammatical since the verb chigatte does not end the clause and otoko nanka has no case particle. Though perhaps that reflects some complications in Japanese grammar not reflected in basic overviews.

*which seems to mean "man" by default...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:22 pm 
Smeric
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It makes sense to me, but isn't it dai-kirai?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:19 pm 
Boardlord
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The sentence is あたしはおねーちゃんと違って男なんか、大っ嫌いなの。

The furigana for 大 is だい. I transliterated daik- to represent the っ.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:37 pm 
Smeric
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Chigatte is the conjunctive form of chigau "to be different". It's not the main verb in this sentence. Oneechan to chigatte means like "unlike big sister". Kirai, or dai(k)kirai is special, because it acts like a verb, but formally it's an adjective. Kirai means dislike, and daikirai means hate (if you translate those words as verbs). Otoko nanka is the object of daikkirai here, and normally it would be followed by the particle ga. But this sentence is in casual speech wherein you can drop particles. In speech you can figure out, perhaps through prosody, what's going on; but here in writing they've marked the absence of the particle with a comma, to make it clearer.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:02 pm 
Boardlord
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Thanks, Qwynegold. I missed the bit about the comma. I'd change the translation, then, to the much simpler "Unlike big sister, I hate boys and such." "Unlike you" might be better.

(The speaker is 16, and responding to a comment from her sister that the boys at school think she's weird, so in English it would be strange to talk about "men".)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:45 am 
Sumerul
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i don't think "otoko nanka ga" would be correct. That 'nanka' is difficult to describe but it's kind of like a particle in itself, so i'm pretty sure it outright replaces the subject particle. it's got a nuance of contempt, too - it's not exactly the same as saying とか, which i'd translate as 'such as'.

the translation is indeed a bit too formal and precise-sounding, and the word 'opinions' does indeed seem to come from nowhere..... but just because you don't know the japanese grammar doesn't mean it's ungrammatical or that the subject is unspecified (it's clearly 'otoko'). your issue should be with the translation, not the japanese sentence.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:48 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:27 pm 
Sanci
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I agree that nanka acts like a particle. Specifically, it's used to show disdain or contempt for what it's modifying and it commonly collocates with kirai.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:28 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:50 am 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:17 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:14 pm 
Niš
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Last edited by Eiríkr Útlendi on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:59 pm 
Smeric
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You mean like what Sal wrote?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:20 pm 
Niš
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:01 am 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:09 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:39 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:26 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:35 am 
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To be fair, it did take until after the Meiji Restoration for the Japanese to realise that renga format was unsuitable for law codes and a lot of innocent people (both samurai and peasants) died unnecessarily before the existing statutes could be completely changed over.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:30 pm 
Avisaru
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