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 Post subject: Him and I.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:27 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:29 pm
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The lyrics to a recently released song "In the end, it's him and I".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA7AIQw-7Ms

That sounds strange to me. Mixing an object pronoun and a subject pronoun. I'd expect "it's him and me", or in really formal speech maybe "it's he and I". "It's him and I" sounds strange.


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 Post subject: Re: Him and I.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:31 pm 
Smeric
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I think this is just euphony.....can't play the song but in speech it'd be /hIm@n@i/ which is CVCVCV,unlike the other 2 forms.

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 Post subject: Re: Him and I.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:49 pm 
Sanno
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Fooge wrote:
That sounds strange to me. Mixing an object pronoun and a subject pronoun. I'd expect "it's him and me", or in really formal speech maybe "it's he and I". "It's him and I" sounds strange.

Sounds pretty normal to me. The educational system has successfully spread hypercorrect "...and I" in objective contexts, but even the most conservative grammar teachers have failed to find any customers for "it's he".

As a sidenote, "It's me and him" sounds more natural to me than "It's him and me".


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 Post subject: Re: Him and I.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:29 pm 
Avisaru
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Yeah, a lot of speakers in my experience treat "and I" as the only possible way to include a first person pronoun in this construction. I have definitely heard "him and I" in speech a fair few times.

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 Post subject: Re: Him and I.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:58 pm 
Sanno
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Yep. Basic My-Wife-And-I-ism

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 Post subject: Re: Him and I.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:50 am 
Avisaru
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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:05 pm
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Yeah, this looks to me like the output of what Nicholas Sobin called the "and I" virus: basically just a rule rewriting "and me" to "and I" regardless of context. See on Language Log "Patterns of prestigious deviance". It's quite common and it's been around for a while. English "case" is vestigial enough that it doesn't really behave like the cases of a language like German.


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 Post subject: Re: Him and I.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:05 pm 
Avisaru
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Sumelic wrote:
... basically just a rule rewriting "and me" to "and I" regardless of context.

What I was exposed to was an instruction to convert 'Me and X' to 'X and I', as a politeness rule. "I and my king" (or "ego et meus rex") is well known to be potentially lethal. As "me and X" is commoner as subject than as object in uncorrected English, the rule is an oversimplification that has got out of hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Him and I.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:26 pm 
Sanno
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Richard W wrote:
Sumelic wrote:
... basically just a rule rewriting "and me" to "and I" regardless of context.

What I was exposed to was an instruction to convert 'Me and X' to 'X and I', as a politeness rule. "I and my king" (or "ego et meus rex") is well known to be potentially lethal. As "me and X" is commoner as subject than as object in uncorrected English, the rule is an oversimplification that has got out of hand.

Hence my use of the term "hypercorrection" above.


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