zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:49 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:03 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 64
They seem to occur mostly in words which are often learned first in reading. For instance, "kiln" is a word that's commonly first encountered in reading and so commonly has a spelling pronunciation with a sounded "n". However that's not always the case. "often" and "clothes" have spelling pronunciations with a sounded "t" and sounded "th" for many speakers and those aren't words that people learn from reading.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:35 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
Fooge wrote:
They seem to occur mostly in words which are often learned first in reading. For instance, "kiln" is a word that's commonly first encountered in reading and so commonly has a spelling pronunciation with a sounded "n". However that's not always the case. "often" and "clothes" have spelling pronunciations with a sounded "t" and sounded "th" for many speakers and those aren't words that people learn from reading.


- "kiln" has always had /l/
- "clothes" may historically have had pronunciations where the /D/ was lost, but we've no way of knowing if those were universal. In any case, if the /D/ was restored it was probably by analogy with 'cloth' (and pairs like mouth/mouths, etc) and with "clothes" (the verb)
- "often", likewise, does have t-less variants, but there's no way to know that the t-dropped variants were ever universal, and restoration is surely at least in part by analogy, which can be a powerful restorative force in this sort of should-never-have-happened-anyway sporadic losses.

These aren't great examples of spelling pronunciation.

_________________
Blog: http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:59 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:54 pm
Posts: 16
Salmoneus wrote:
I- "kiln" has always had /l/


It's the /n/ that's sometimes lost, not the /l/.

Salmoneus wrote:
In any case, if the /D/ was restored it was probably by analogy with 'cloth'


By the time /ð/ was lost, cloth could have already had its vowel shortened.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:53 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Posts: 3687
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston
Fooge wrote:
They seem to occur mostly in words which are often learned first in reading. For instance, "kiln" is a word that's commonly first encountered in reading and so commonly has a spelling pronunciation with a sounded "n".

I'm not sure that's necessarily true of kilns. Pottery-making is not exactly a dead art.

But that's cool, I didn't know about the loss of /n/ in much of England. This US pronunciation could be based on spelling or could also go back to dialects which preserved the /n/.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:28 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 364
linguoboy wrote:
I'm not sure that's necessarily true of kilns. Pottery-making is not exactly a dead art.

But contact may be lost with pottery-making, and with the use of kilns in general.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:31 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 364
Sol717 wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
In any case, if the /D/ was restored it was probably by analogy with 'cloth'


By the time /ð/ was lost, cloth could have already had its vowel shortened.

This is a nitpick, isn't it? The contact is probably with clothing and the verb to clothe. Cloth and clothe have largely gone their separate semantic ways,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:35 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Richard W wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
I'm not sure that's necessarily true of kilns. Pottery-making is not exactly a dead art.

But contact may be lost with pottery-making, and with the use of kilns in general.

I don't understand what this means.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:06 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 364
Vijay wrote:
Richard W wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
I'm not sure that's necessarily true of kilns. Pottery-making is not exactly a dead art.

But contact may be lost with pottery-making, and with the use of kilns in general.

I don't understand what this means.

It means that 'kiln' is not part of my everyday vocabulary. It's an unusual technical term that I can vaguely remember learning.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:22 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Richard W wrote:
Vijay wrote:
Richard W wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
I'm not sure that's necessarily true of kilns. Pottery-making is not exactly a dead art.

But contact may be lost with pottery-making, and with the use of kilns in general.

I don't understand what this means.

It means that 'kiln' is not part of my everyday vocabulary. It's an unusual technical term that I can vaguely remember learning.

Pottery kilns are something I would probably be more likely to associate with my Indian heritage than with anything else.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:20 am 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Posts: 3687
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston
Vijay wrote:
Richard W wrote:
It means that 'kiln' is not part of my everyday vocabulary. It's an unusual technical term that I can vaguely remember learning.

Pottery kilns are something I would probably be more likely to associate with my Indian heritage than with anything else.

I associate them with urban hippies.

Now that I think of it, the same probably applies to a lot of things.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:58 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:35 pm
Posts: 492
Location: Michigan, USA
I associate them with grade school art class...

_________________
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:39 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Posts: 3687
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston
What kind of hippy-ass grade school did you go to?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:40 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Posts: 3581
Location: Milwaukee, US
linguoboy wrote:
What kind of hippy-ass grade school did you go to?

The grade schools I went to also had kilns.

_________________
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:53 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:35 pm
Posts: 492
Location: Michigan, USA
lol, it was a very small conservative rural school in Michigan. Not a lot of hippies in sight! We did ceramics in both middle and high school art classes, it was a lot of fun.

_________________
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:00 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:16 pm
Posts: 259
Location: New Zealand
My private primary school had a kiln. Clay was one of my favourite art thingies; my parents still have a couple mini sculptures of mine at their place. I don't know how normal that is here though. I never did art at secondary school but as far as I know there was no kiln there.

_________________
If you cannot change your mind, are you sure you have one?

Here's a thread on Oscan.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:43 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin
I associate kilns with the Terracotta Army. I just checked and it seems that kiln and mill rhymed in Middle English (kilne milne). The /n/ was lost in both cases but regained in kiln.
Wikipedia wrote:
However, there are small bastions where the original pronunciation has endured. Kiln, Mississippi, a small town known for its wood drying kilns that once served the timber industry, is still referred to as "the Kill" by locals.

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:49 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Posts: 3687
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston
mèþru wrote:
I associate kilns with the Terracotta Army. I just checked and it seems that kiln and mill rhymed in Middle English (kilne milne). The /n/ was lost in both cases but regained in kiln.
Wikipedia wrote:
However, there are small bastions where the original pronunciation has endured. Kiln, Mississippi, a small town known for its wood drying kilns that once served the timber industry, is still referred to as "the Kill" by locals.

It seems odd to call what's obviously an innovation "the original pronunciation".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:56 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin
What Wikipedia says is that it wasn't an innovation. Instead, /n/ at the end of kiln is an innovation as it had already been elided previously.

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:22 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Posts: 3687
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston
mèþru wrote:
What Wikipedia says is that it wasn't an innovation. Instead, /n/ at the end of kiln is an innovation as it had already been elided previously.

I understand what Wikipedia said. It was (a) inaccurate and (b) could have been better phrased.

Quoth the OED: "In Middle English the final -n became silent (in most districts)" [my emphasis]

So the loss wasn't universal. Instead, you had two pronunciations coexisting: a conservative pronunciation with /n/, which was reflected in the (eventual) standard spelling, and an innovative pronunciation without it, which wasn't. At some point, /n/ seems to have been restored to varieties at the expensive of the previously innovative pronunciation. So "original" is bad phrasing, since it makes more sense to apply it to the pronunciation predating the loss of /n/ (i.e. the pronunciation closer to the origin of the word in time), but that's the opposite of what's intended.

As I say above, you'd have to know which areas of England preserved the earlier unelided pronunciation and for how long to know how much of the prevalence of /kiln/ in the USA is the result of that spelling-influenced restoration and how much is retention. (According to your preferred resource, Kiln, Mississippi wasn't settled until the 1840s and didn't receive its name until the 1880s.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:30 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin
I stand corrected inside a kiln:
More: show
Image

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:02 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:14 pm
Posts: 1644
Location: Berlin, Germany
I remember learning the word kiln in primary school. The school didn't have one, but at some point we made clay thingies that got sent to a kiln to be kilned in the kiln. It was kind of dumb because even though we were told to avoid air bubbles or thick parts, we were kids, so of course some people's things exploded and because they were all in the kiln together, kilning together, the shrapnel destroyed even well-made stuff so we basically got a whole lot of clay shards back. My high school art department had a kiln too.

Anyway, the main thing I remember was that most of us had problems with the /ln/ cluster. When speaking English normally, I definitely vocalise that /l/... I think I do in "film" too, even though that isn't nearly as difficult. Anyway, now I speak German, so I have enough /ln/ to get good at it.

Does anyone know of another English word with /ln/ in a coda? I can only think of the name Milne.

Also, any idea why the t is so often pronounced in "often" but basically never in thistle, castle, listen, fasten, mustn't? Is it that the FRICATIVE /t/ SCHWA /l/n/ thingy didn't happen as widespreadly with /f/ as with /s/ and held on in some dialects to respread, or there some reason that makes "often" a better candidate to pick up a spelling pronunciation?

Off topic: And why the hell isn't widespreadly a commonly used word? I can't remember what I'm supposed to say prescriptively without resorting to a longer phrase.

_________________
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:19 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm
Posts: 1228
Location: Scattered disc
Just saying "widely" is clear in context, I think.sorry can't comment on the rest of the post.

_________________
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:55 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:14 pm
Posts: 1644
Location: Berlin, Germany
Soap wrote:
Just saying "widely" is clear in context, I think.sorry can't comment on the rest of the post.

Ha, thanks! Sometimes my word-searching device in my head just gives up in overwhelmment ...

_________________
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:34 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Posts: 3687
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston
Imralu wrote:
Does anyone know of another English word with /ln/ in a coda? I can only think of the name Milne.

FWIW, Wikipedia gives no rhymes. I'm quite happy to delete shwas in allegro speech most of the time, but I can't think of a single instance where I elide it between /l/ and /n/.

One of my takeaways from this thread is that the surname "Milne", whose origins were long mysterious to me, is etymologically identical to "Mill".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:40 pm 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den
Imralu wrote:
Does anyone know of another English word with /ln/ in a coda? I can only think of the name Milne.


They're pretty hard to come by, but gamers have come up with "invuln".


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group