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zompist bboard • View topic - Palatalization/velarization in Irish

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

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Why are Seán ([ʃɔːnˠ]) and Séan ([ʃeːnˠ]) clearly palatalized in Irish? I don't think Shawn and Shane are palatalized in English.

Edit: Changed name to reflect info in linguoboy's most recent post while preserving the text above as is for posterity.


Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:39 pm 
Smeric
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Because Irish contrasts palatalized and unpalatalized consonants and English doesn't?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:13 am 
Sanno
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I don't understand the question. Irish palatalised /s/ is realised as an palato-alveoar fricative [ʃ]. If it weren't palatalised, it would be [sˠ], a velarised alveolar sibilant.

The fact that the English contrast of /ʃ/ and /s/ isn't one of systematic palatalisation isn't at all relevant to Irish.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:29 pm 
Lebom
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The question's about the final <n> in the names. I could be wrong, but I don't think Shawn or Shane has a palatalized <n> in English. If Wikipedia is accurate, Seán and Séan have their final <n> palatalized in Irish.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:06 pm 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:21 am 
Lebom
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I knew what it was telling me. I just wasn't entirely paying attention to my typing when I created the topic or made my previous post. Exactly, why is Seán's final <n> velarized in Irish? Same goes for a Sheánin's last <n> being palatalized. I think I missed the faux pas because I was too wrapped up in waiting for initial replies. However, I have no clue why I didn't correct it with my second post and kept using the incorrect term until someone pointed it out to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:32 am 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:33 pm 
Sanno
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:47 pm 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:31 am 
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GRMA!

(another thing to fail to remember...)

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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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