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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:05 pm 
Visanom
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Travis B. wrote:
But consider that, say, native English speakers will almost invariably pronounce foreign words with some combination of English spelling pronunciation, pseudo-Spanish pronunciation, or (more historically) pseudo-French pronunciation...

You can't expect English speakers to correctly pronounce words in languages they don't speak, but it's not unreasonable to expect Finns to pronounce English words somewhat correctly. Of course you can't expect native-like pronunciation, but like in the example I gave, something like [ˈfeːri] should be good enough, while ['fɑiry] is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Pole, the wrote:
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And it's not like she mistook the C for a G, because I saw that she had written down the movie title correctly.

Big giant spoiler: Finnish doesn't have /ɡ/ as a separate phoneme.

Which makes it surprising that she used [ɡ] rather than [k].

Pole, the wrote:
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Anyway, the absolute biggest problem is spelling pronunciation of English loanwords or names. It annoys me to no end. Here are some examples: live [ˈliʋe], Rennie [ˈrenːie], Veet [ˈʋeːt], Tom Cruise [ˈtom ˈkruise], Fairy [ˈfɑiry]*.

Probably from their point of view it makes more sense than not pronouncing half of the vowels and pronouncing the other half in a seemingly random way.

But they do know how these words are supposed to be pronounced, since they don't use these spelling pronunciations when speaking a whole sentence in English (at least not to the same atrocious extent).

Pole, the wrote:
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*This one makes no sense at all because the spelling pronunciation is harder to pronounce due to it breaking vowel harmony

Big giant spoiler: vowel harmony is a morphological rule, not a phonological one. Finns have no problem with pronouncing words mixing the two groups of vowels. Guess what, that happens even in native words!

Yes we do. Speaking of my own experience, some Estonian words can be really cumbersome because they're otherwise very much like Finnish words, except they don't follow vowel harmony. Another example is when my sister and a friend of her was visitin Sweden, and the friend was driving us when a road sign said "Essingeöarna". She was like "how on Earth do Swedes pronounce these words, Essinge<really slowly and clumsily uttered>öa</really slowly and clumsily uttered>rna?" The way she said it implied that she was really struggling to move her tongue around from one vowel position to the other. She was also unable to pronounce the two vowels at her normal speaking speed; the speed came down to quite an extreme halt when she reached that part.

Pole, the wrote:
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than any approximation of the original pronunciation. (Like [ˈfeːri] which I think would be good enough.)

If you've grown up in a world of an almost completely phonological orthography, like the Finnish one, it actually takes some time and some push to connect “fairy” with /feəɹi/.

But they wouldn't pronounce like this if speaking to an English speaker.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:33 pm 
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jmcd wrote:
Considering they're Finns living in Finland, I don't see any reason to expect native-like pronunciation from them.

See my response to Travis B.

Anyhow, to summarize: This spelling pronounciation annoys me because they are obviously doing it on purpose. The fact that the average Finn's level of English is otherwise not that poor is evidence of that. One place where you often witness these spelling pronounciation is on TV commercials. I don't understand why they do this. It can't be that the companies don't know how their own product names are pronounced. One could say that maybe their doing it so that consumers will understand what they're talking about, but since the product is usually always shown in writing as well on the screen, I don't think there's any risk of confusion. A TV commercial would also be an excellent opportunity to teach the consumers how to pronounce the product name, by displaying the name in writing at the same time as it is uttered.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:38 pm 
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On to something else. Today I learned about the Georgia Guidestones (it was also talked about on here: https://youtu.be/C71z8Rp2xj0). This is a stone monument in Georgia, US, with an inscription written in eight different modern languages, and another inscription written in four ancient languages. What I thought was interesting was that one of the inscriptions says "Unite humanity with a living new language". Do you think they're trying to promote an international auxlang?

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:59 pm 
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More promoting the idea rather than a specific one.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:02 pm 
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The way English slogans and movie names are pronounced in German ads really annoys me. I want to tell them to reduce the unstressed vowels more. Apparently Maytallica has a new album out.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:20 am 
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Qwynegold wrote:
Pole, the wrote:
Quote:
And it's not like she mistook the C for a G, because I saw that she had written down the movie title correctly.

Big giant spoiler: Finnish doesn't have /ɡ/ as a separate phoneme.

Which makes it surprising that she used [ɡ] rather than [k].

Not really, it's hypercorrection. She's able to pronounce it (the phoneme) but isn't aware of where it should be used. It's like when Germans use [w] instead of [v] - we expect that they'll do the other way around because they don't have [w], but they do both ways basically.

Also the other thing with Assassin's Creed is it uses an unusual word, creed, while "greed" is a common word that I'd expect intermediate level English speakers to know. Creed is at such an advanced level I can only come up with a vague definition for it, and in the context of this game I don't know what it signifies, because I've never played it.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:48 am 
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jmcd wrote:
My mum pronounces it [ɡriːd] as well and she's lived in Scotland most of her life. I suspect it's influenced by her variety of German.

Austro-Bavarian? They're terrible with these.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:26 am 
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My mum comes from Rheinland-Pfalz but her variety of German is oddly easier understood by Bavarians than other people in the region, so I suspect a centuries-old immigration.

Also, I say English loanwords such as 'weekend' and 'sandwich' differently in other languages. I sometimes even say my own name differently.

I experienced hypercorrection myself when I first came to Réunion, with nasal vowels. I could pronounce nasal vowels but, particularly in rapid speech, I used to get them muddled up occasionally with oral vowel-nasal vowel sequences.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Wait, are arguably and debatably, synonyms or antonyms?

I'm asking because:
(1) Wiktionary says arguably means it can be proven (= it's certain);
(2) Wiktionary says debatably means it can be challenged (= it's uncertain);
(3) on both pages it lists each other as synonyms.

I have been using both in the second meaning, but now I am confused. Should I use it in the other meaning? Should I stop using it at all? Is Wiktionary arguably fucked up?

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Pole, the wrote:
Wait, are arguably and debatably, synonyms or antonyms?

Well, let's quote the arguably/debatably two most prestigious dictionaries:

Arguably:
Cambridge: "used when stating an opinion or belief that you think can be shown to be true"
Merriam Webster: "as may be argued or shown by argument"

Debatably:
Cambridge (for "debatable"): "not clear or certain because different people may have different opinions"
Merriam Webster (also "debatable"): "open to dispute" (with synonym "questionable"), open to debate

So 1) "debatably" ain't a word ;) and 2) they are neither synonyms nor antonyms.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:32 pm 
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I think the meaning is very similar - both are used when you're putting forward an opinion that you know will not convince everyone. However, the situations are different: 'arguably' is closer to "OK I know you may not ALL agree with this, but I think my case is good...", whereas 'debatably' (more properly 'it's debatable whether...') is more like "yes I know you're mostly going to disagree with this but hear me out, there's actually a case to be made...". I believe 'arguably' originally had a stronger meaning (like 'demonstrably'), but unless you're, say, a lawyer, I don't think it's current. My intuition, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Wow, five new episodes of Steven Universe have been early-released.

Finally something I can binge-watch without ruining my calendar.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:52 pm 
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finlay wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Pole, the wrote:
Quote:
And it's not like she mistook the C for a G, because I saw that she had written down the movie title correctly.

Big giant spoiler: Finnish doesn't have /ɡ/ as a separate phoneme.

Which makes it surprising that she used [ɡ] rather than [k].

Not really, it's hypercorrection. She's able to pronounce it (the phoneme) but isn't aware of where it should be used. It's like when Germans use [w] instead of [v] - we expect that they'll do the other way around because they don't have [w], but they do both ways basically.

Also the other thing with Assassin's Creed is it uses an unusual word, creed, while "greed" is a common word that I'd expect intermediate level English speakers to know. Creed is at such an advanced level I can only come up with a vague definition for it, and in the context of this game I don't know what it signifies, because I've never played it.

I think it's greed that's causing the confusion. I don't understand how you can have hypercorrection when you're seeing the word written in front of you.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Imralu wrote:

It should be more appropriately named “Elders react to a shitty music video”.

Quote:
I think it's greed that's causing the confusion. I don't understand how you can have hypercorrection when you're seeing the word written in front of you.

I don't know, from what I have experienced, [ɡ] is not an uncommon realization of Finnish /k/. (Also, the Finns I've met, usually had more trouble distinguishing [p : b], [k : ɡ] and [s : ʃ : z : ʒ] — with the confusion going both ways, like [tʃɑˈbɑn] for “Japan” or [hɑrd biː] for “‘hard’ P” — than with vowels or consonant clusters, provided the latter were written in an intuitive manner).

It probably mirrors a similar situation in Polish: most foreigners have trouble distinguishing [ʂ : ɕ] or [i : ɨ], even if they are reading words written down — or writing down words pronounced by a native speaker.

But, well, your experience might be different.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:36 pm 
Sumerul
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Qwynegold wrote:
finlay wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Pole, the wrote:
Quote:
And it's not like she mistook the C for a G, because I saw that she had written down the movie title correctly.

Big giant spoiler: Finnish doesn't have /ɡ/ as a separate phoneme.

Which makes it surprising that she used [ɡ] rather than [k].

Not really, it's hypercorrection. She's able to pronounce it (the phoneme) but isn't aware of where it should be used. It's like when Germans use [w] instead of [v] - we expect that they'll do the other way around because they don't have [w], but they do both ways basically.

Also the other thing with Assassin's Creed is it uses an unusual word, creed, while "greed" is a common word that I'd expect intermediate level English speakers to know. Creed is at such an advanced level I can only come up with a vague definition for it, and in the context of this game I don't know what it signifies, because I've never played it.

I think it's greed that's causing the confusion. I don't understand how you can have hypercorrection when you're seeing the word written in front of you.

About ten years ago, I was briefly learning Polish. I'd mess up sz and ś all the time. I never got to the point where my brain could accept them as separate sounds. I'd overpronounce them, making the retroflex one extremely retroflex and the palatalised one entirely palatal, as [ç], so I wasn't using the normal English sh sound in my Polish at all ... but my brain would make me just pick one of these two differentiated sounds because it had the idea that that makes it sound more Polish, but I apparently just picked a random one unless I really concentrated, even when reading words written in front of me.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Pole, the wrote:
Imralu wrote:

It should be more appropriately named “Elders react to a shitty music video”.
Yeah, but that's only at the start of the video, then it becomes all about the music.

Quote:
Quote:
I think it's greed that's causing the confusion. I don't understand how you can have hypercorrection when you're seeing the word written in front of you.

I don't know, from what I have experienced, [ɡ] is not an uncommon realization of Finnish /k/. (Also, the Finns I've met, usually had more trouble distinguishing [p : b], [k : ɡ] and [s : ʃ : z : ʒ] — with the confusion going both ways, like [tʃɑˈbɑn] for “Japan” or [hɑrd biː] for “‘hard’ P” — than with vowels or consonant clusters, provided the latter were written in an intuitive manner).

It probably mirrors a similar situation in Polish: most foreigners have trouble distinguishing [ʂ : ɕ] or [i : ɨ], even if they are reading words written down — or writing down words pronounced by a native speaker.

But, well, your experience might be different.

You ninjaed me :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Pole, the wrote:
I don't know, from what I have experienced, [ɡ] is not an uncommon realization of Finnish /k/.

Pole, the wrote:
[hɑrd biː] for “‘hard’ P”

WUT??! Are you sure it wasn't just the lack of aspiration that made you hear unvoiced plosives as voiced?

Pole, the wrote:
(Also, the Finns I've met, usually had more trouble distinguishing [p : b], [k : ɡ] and [s : ʃ : z : ʒ]

Pole, the wrote:
like [tʃɑˈbɑn] for “Japan”

This is true though.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Imralu wrote:
About ten years ago, I was briefly learning Polish. I'd mess up sz and ś all the time. I never got to the point where my brain could accept them as separate sounds. I'd overpronounce them, making the retroflex one extremely retroflex and the palatalised one entirely palatal, as [ç], so I wasn't using the normal English sh sound in my Polish at all ... but my brain would make me just pick one of these two differentiated sounds because it had the idea that that makes it sound more Polish, but I apparently just picked a random one unless I really concentrated, even when reading words written in front of me.

Maybe it's because <sz> and <ś> don't really imply anything to English speakers, other than that they're fricatives. Of course, you could say the same about <c> and <g> and Finns, because these letters aren't used much in Finnish. But Finns should be more familiar with <c> and <g> than English speakers with <sz> and <ś>.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Qwynegold wrote:
WUT??! Are you sure it wasn't just the lack of aspiration that made you hear unvoiced plosives as voiced?

Not likely. Unless I somehow unlearned a distinction that my mother tongue makes (voiced : voiceless) and replaced it with one it's ignorant of (aspirated : tenuis).

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:04 am 
Sumerul
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Qwynegold wrote:
Maybe it's because <sz> and <ś> don't really imply anything to English speakers, other than that they're fricatives. Of course, you could say the same about <c> and <g> and Finns, because these letters aren't used much in Finnish. But Finns should be more familiar with <c> and <g> than English speakers with <sz> and <ś>.
Yeah, but I was actively learning it, linguistically aware, and conscious of what the difference is ... but I suspect the languagey parts of brains sometimes just goes "Oh, this language has X in it, which I find hard to distinguish from Y, so therefore it's better if I use X a lot because that makes it more authentic." I'd read "Jak się masz? Dobrze!" and I might get it right or I might say "Jak sze maś? Dobzie!" ... it was like all my brain was trying to avoid was "Yuck sheh mush? Dobzheh!"

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Pole, the wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
WUT??! Are you sure it wasn't just the lack of aspiration that made you hear unvoiced plosives as voiced?

Not likely. Unless I somehow unlearned a distinction that my mother tongue makes (voiced : voiceless) and replaced it with one it's ignorant of (aspirated : tenuis).

Oh, I see. Ah, maybe it was in words that had voiced and unvoiced plosives close to each other, because that can trip Finns up.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Imralu wrote:
... it was like all my brain was trying to avoid was "Yuck sheh mush? Dobzheh!"

lol

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:05 pm 
Smeric
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Qwynegold wrote:
Imralu wrote:
... it was like all my brain was trying to avoid was "Yuck sheh mush? Dobzheh!"

lol

Why “lol”, it is an exact replication of the stereotypical foreigner's Polish accent.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:34 pm 
Sumerul
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When speaking German and an English word containing /w/ or /r/ is in the sentence, I briefly have to turn off the "pronounce this sound as German mode" in my head and any nearby German word containing /r/ or /w/ ends up with an English ... I often get around this by sounding Germaner than the cool Germans I know but it's really uncool to say Juhtjuhp Rett or something like tha.

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