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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:23 am 
Sumerul
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Vijay wrote:
Sorry about the long-ass post
No probs
Vijay wrote:
but this is an issue I take pretty personally.
Good! It is a pretty heavy issue. I was closer in opinion to you when I first considered the topic. It took a lot of time for me to change my mind.
Vijay wrote:
Jane Doe wrote:
Adult offspring are perfectly able to accept or decline any advances made by a parent, or make advances of their own.

This is just straight-up false. You don't have to be a child to be raped by your parents./quote]That's not what Jane says. She said that they are capable of consent. Jane has communicated before with victims of abuse and she always condemns abuse, whether incestuous or not.
Quote:
Once somebody is an adult, they’re able to make up their own minds about who they date.
Vijay wrote:
You wouldn’t tell a 20 year old woman not to date her 40 year old boss at work (unless either of them were in an existing monogamous relationship already)

Seriously? I would absolutely tell her that if I thought there was any chance she'd listen. Lots of people already say exactly that. It's not just about parents and children.
I actually agree with you here. It's creepy. But if the employee initiates things, I am okay. And if the boss proposes dating, I would suggest exercising extreme caution rather than telling her not to date. Relationships with a legal power imbalance don't always translate into an emotional imbalance, even if it does some or most of the time.
Vijay wrote:
Quote:
If two people are happy together and enjoying a harmonious relationship, how could this do anything but enhance family life?

Oh, I was "happy together" in a "harmonious relationship" with my dad all right. The problem is that the only reason I was was because I didn't know any better. And once I did start to know better, it was no longer either happy or harmonious. In fact, it wasn't really either of those things to begin with, and it probably never really will be. Yet I absolutely believed it was from early childhood to about five years ago, and so of course that's what I would've told or indeed insisted to anybody who asked.
Not everyone is in your situation, don't project it on them. It's callous and demeaning to say that all of those people are not truly aware of their abuse, to say that they are all deluded.
Vijay wrote:
Our age does not somehow magically and automatically endow every single one of us with wisdom and awareness regarding what kinds of relationships we are capable of having with people. Not all adults have ever experienced a truly good relationship or even know what the hell that is. It doesn't matter whether you (generic you throughout this paragraph) are six years old or sixteen or sixty;
That is completely true. I am sure I am not ready for a relationship yet, for instance, yet I know many people ended up marrying and staying happy for their whole life people they dated at 16. Jane addresses this in her blog: she says emotional maturity is what matters most, not genetic relations. People can't legislate emotional maturity requirements however. Age of consent laws will have to do.
Vijay wrote:
if no one you've known until that time has ever, for example, allowed you to vent out all your feelings and listened to you in the process (instead of dismissing it with callous remarks like "oh you'll feel better if you just work harder," if not simply ignoring you or outright bullying you), you're probably not going to know it's okay to feel frustrated with a lot of things because you're going to keep thinking you should be happy with them and if you're not, that's your fault. You're going to keep thinking that just because your parents are nicer to you than anyone else you've known so far, no one else is ever going to be as nice to you, and that line of thinking is going to scar you for life no matter what you do.
In that situation, I doubt that the hypothetical is ready for any kind of romantic relationship.

If you ever want to talk about your shitty dad, feel free to vent to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:37 pm 
Sumerul
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One of the problems with the argument that the child should be released because they was abused is that it wouldn't be helpful when they denies abuse occurring. And children can potentially be the abuser in a consanguineous relationship as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:12 pm 
Sanno
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It occurs to me that one general thing should be borne in mind when considering love laws:

every time you protect someone from an imbalance of power against their will, you are subjecting them to an imbalance of power.

If you say "Jill needs to be protected from Jack, so I'll use [the police, the unbearable force of social pressure, etc] to keep them apart no matter what Jill thinks about the matter", then you're also, at the same time, saying "my opinion is more important than Jill's opinion, and Jill has no right to determine her own actions if I Know What's Better For Her, and if necessary I'll force her to do what I want her to do".

Now, I'm not saying that's never the lesser evil. The world is complicated. But I am saying that such actions always have a cost, in suffering and in sin, and you have to take that cost into consideration when weighing up whether to intervene.

If you force Jill not to have sex with her father, you are controlling Jill's sex life and you are undermining her dignity as a self-determinating human being, denying her ability to discern and freely pursue her own interests, and not only is that a bad thing inherently but it also has practical consequences for how Jill sees herself and how she deals with the world - you're infantilising her. [And if you can't force her not to have sex with her father, but punish her severely for it in order to frighten others, then that has its own gamut of sins and sufferings attached].

Now again: maybe sometimes infantilising, disempowering and dehumanising Jill, taking direct State control over her vagina because The State Knows Best... maybe sometimes that IS the least worst thing to do. [I'm in favour, for instance, of not necessarily giving unlimited heroin to addicts with a history of overdosing.]

But we must never delude ourselves into thinking that this is a free move, neither damaging nor morally questionable.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:09 pm 
Sumerul
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Salmoneus wrote:
Not sure how you're reading that, if that's the conclusion you draw?

I missed that. It was my mistake.
Quote:
With respect, however, while it's sad that you and your parents are less close than you used to be as a child, I don't see any relevance to the issues at hand. You allege that your parents are abuse, despite having been friendly toward you in the past. OK, but even accepting that that's true, that doesn't seem like a reason why parents shouldn't be friendly with their children (the problem seems to be more that they are no longer friendly, rather than that they used to be friendly). It certainly doesn't seem like a reason why children should go to jail for being friends with their parents. So how does it mean that children should go to jail for having sex with their parents? (or, indeed, that their parents should go to jail for having sex with their adult children?). I'm not seeing the chain of deduction that you're trying to draw between your case and the case of loving incestuous couples.

Indeed, it doesn't mean parents being friendly with their children is necessarily bad, let alone jailworthy. Let me try phrasing it this way and seeing whether it makes any more sense: I suffered because I depended on my parents for my friendship-related needs without realizing that other people could provide me more of both if only I knew how to access them. Likewise, I don't see how anyone depending on their parents for their marriage-related needs, without realizing who else they might feel more comfortable marrying, could avoid suffering.
mèþru wrote:
That's not what Jane says. She said that they are capable of consent.

And I'm saying I don't see how that's a situation where any meaningful sense of "consent" is possible, just like how Thomas Jefferson's slave could not consent to sex with him in any meaningful sense (though I realize not everyone agrees with me on this view of Thomas Jefferson).
Quote:
Jane has communicated before with victims of abuse and she always condemns abuse, whether incestuous or not.

Which helps her case because why? Being familiar with stories of abuse doesn't necessarily make you more aware of your own; indeed, it can make you less aware of your own, as you (may) think anything you may feel could not possibly be as serious as what they feel. Certainly this was the case for me at least.
Quote:
But if the employee initiates things, I am okay.

Why?
Quote:
And if the boss proposes dating, I would suggest exercising extreme caution rather than telling her not to date.

Why?
Quote:
Relationships with a legal power imbalance don't always translate into an emotional imbalance, even if it does some or most of the time.

I'm not sure whether I'd say even my own relationship involved an emotional imbalance; it involved emotional abuse, and I think I kind of understand where it's coming from. But in any case, what is the evidence that these particular relationships do not always translate into either an emotional imbalance or emotional abuse?
Quote:
Vijay wrote:
Quote:
If two people are happy together and enjoying a harmonious relationship, how could this do anything but enhance family life?

Oh, I was "happy together" in a "harmonious relationship" with my dad all right. The problem is that the only reason I was was because I didn't know any better. And once I did start to know better, it was no longer either happy or harmonious. In fact, it wasn't really either of those things to begin with, and it probably never really will be. Yet I absolutely believed it was from early childhood to about five years ago, and so of course that's what I would've told or indeed insisted to anybody who asked.

Not everyone is in your situation, don't project it on them. It's callous and demeaning to say that all of those people are not truly aware of their abuse, to say that they are all deluded.

She asked a question, and I answered it. She said, "How could two people living happily together in harmony have a family life that was not enhanced?" And I said because they can have misconceptions both about whether they're happy and about whether they're living in harmony, as I did.

But since you brought it up: Again, how do you know how similar or not their situations are to mine? Have you experienced a situation akin to theirs? And why is it "callous and demeaning" to say they're not aware of how they were abused and are all "deluded" if I'm also saying I wasn't aware of how I was abused and was "deluded"? Does that make me "callous and demeaning" towards myself, too?
Quote:
If you ever want to talk about your shitty dad, feel free to vent to me.

Thanks, but he's not shitty, just Indian. My point is I don't see how consent is meaningful when one or more of the people involved in said consent is vested with legal authority over all the others.


Last edited by Vijay on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:55 am 
Sumerul
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Image

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:57 pm 
Sumerul
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Do you know what kind of performance that's from, masako? (I'm tempted to guess Shen Yun but probably not).

EDIT: Nah, it's probably a Chinese Thousand Hand Bodhisattva dance. Apparently, the Thousand Hand Bodhisattva is considered the same as Avalokiteśvara at least in some parts of China.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:30 am 
Osän
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i don't know how to fonts. how do i fonts


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:12 am 
Osän
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by the power of monotype, i have... Diacritics. but still no capitals

this is all javascript btw. i don't know how to fonts. it is slightly ugly because the font is 16pt, which makes it easier to fuck with but harder to see and resizing sucks somehow

(fixedsys excelsior, above is dejavu serif i think)


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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:15 pm 
Sumerul
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There was a shooting at a Florida high school:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43066226
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-43066528

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:08 pm 
Sumerul
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Water is wet.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:22 pm 
Sanno
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KathTheDragon wrote:
Water is wet.

Sadly, my reaction to.

Not only that, I could have written out all the response I saw on Facebook and elsewhere totally from memory. My one friend called for better mental health care. Another friend responded to that with a call for better parenting. Trump actually tweeted out "prayers and condolences". Comedians responded to that with snark, which other friends shared. Then came the assault of pro-gun control articles and the return fire of Second Amendment absolutist responses. Etc. etc. etc.

I'ma go read a book.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:09 am 
Sumerul
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Oh great, now everyone around me at work is going to be like "did you hear about the shooting in Florida??? Omg it's so SAD! How could anyone do such a thing" etc. before they suddenly move on to topics that interest them more within two minutes as if nothing happened, like Elon Musk and cryptocurrency and how weird/hard various widely spoken Indo-European languages sound to native speakers of other widely spoken Indo-European languages.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:54 am 
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My favorite snarky Facebook comment: "Let's ban guns, and when anyone complains about it, offer them our 'thoughts and prayers.' That seems to be sufficient to alleviate any sized loss." I liked it, so I've basically solved violence.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:12 am 
Osän
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these tragedies all have one thing in common, you know

it's time to ban public schools

(and colleges)

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:28 am 
Avisaru
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The obvious solution is, of course, to ban white men. Y'all are now illegal. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:29 am 
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Please don't do that, the rest of the world does not want to see and exodus of American white men coming to their country, however brilliant an idea that may seem domestically.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:59 am 
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Oh, no no no. You misunderstand me. I didn't mean American white men. I meant white men in general. Y'all have fun on the moon or something.

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I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:31 pm 
Sanno
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No way! I'ma Dolezal myself up and stay righ' chere!


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:05 pm 
Šriftom
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Somehow I'll find Native American ancestry somewhere in my family tree.

(Even though all my ancestors who my parents tracked down in their geneology phase were ethnic Germans or Poles from present-day Germany, Poland, and Ukraine.)

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:42 pm 
Sanno
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alynnidalar wrote:
Oh, no no no. You misunderstand me. I didn't mean American white men. I meant white men in general. Y'all have fun on the moon or something.


...because the Swiss are committing mass shootings in the USA?


vijay: how should those conversations go, then? Should people not mention bad things like school shootings? Or should they not change the topic? Because if you mean the latter: well, as linguoboy says, there's not really much left to say. We've have those conversations. I remember having those conversations in the aftermath of Columbine, and even after Columbine we all knew that these were old conversations. After Columbine, we could at least say that conversations that had previously been taking place at a local level, or among theorists and think tanks, were then being had by the public at large, on a perhaps unprecedented scale.

But Columbine was (*insert sigh about getting old*) a long time ago, and the problem has only gotten worse, and the conversations haven't advanced a jot. In fact, they've gone backwards (support for even limited gun control gets lower and lower, and Columbine-era restrictions have been reversed).

Ultimately, unfortunately, the issue has to be just that America enjoys having school shootings. Or at least, if that sounds harsh, they enjoy them more than they think they'd enjoy the alternatives. It's just one of those picturesque folk byways and traditional customs that every culture has, like quilting or rustic dancing.

I don't just say that because I'm to the left of the US. Obviously, as a non-American, I think that (as is obvious) the most important step in reducing gun violence would be in seriously reducing the number and acessibility of guns. But it's not just that America refuses to limit gun ownership, and has even been expanding gun ownership (hey, remember when assault rifles were banned?). It's that America has consistently refused to take any meaningful steps to combat these shootings, from any direction. Think school shootings are due to inequality? Inequality is rising and congress is happy with that. Think they're due to mental illness? There have been no significant, relevant, fiscal or regulatory improvements in mental health provisioning. Think they're due to a failure to educate children about gun violence? Spending has been cut, and is in line to be cut further. Even if you think they're due to a lack of physical security at schools, the improvements in that area have been piecemeal and paltry, mere symbolic gestures. A few weeks after each major killing spree, everyone drops the subject, because despite what they say on the news, nobody really cares.

So in recent years the US has been averaging 1 school shooting per week. So far in 2018, they've been averaging one school shooting every 2.5 days.

Deaths in school shootings:
1920s: 5
1930s: 9
1940s: 11
1950s: 14
1960s: 28
1970s: 34
1980s: 46
1990s: 84
2000s: 114
2010-2017: 114
January and half of February 2018: 20

So what do you say anymore? Clearly everybody's decided they're just OK with this.


[Columbine cast a long shadow. But this shooting was deadlier than Columbine, and will probably be forgotten within weeks, the same way Umpqua, Red Lake and Oikos were forgotten. America's succeeded so well at raising the bar for what makes a notable massacre... five of the ten deadliest mass shootings in US history have now been in the last 2 (and three months) years.]

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:59 pm 
Avisaru
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"But how can a peanut be assaulted? I think you are very confused indeed about legumes and crime statistics. You see, peanuts are not legal persons, and cannot claim legal injury. Please direct your attention to this chart..."

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:01 pm 
Osän
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alynnidalar wrote:
The obvious solution is, of course, to ban white men. Y'all are now illegal. :roll:

On the contrary, white men are underrepresented relative to the US population in the class of spree shooters. We need more white spree shooters. For equality.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:24 pm 
Sumerul
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Actually, many blue states have taken small steps against gun violence. Nikolas Cruz would never have been able to buy a semiautomatic where I live. He could still have bought a shotgun and killed people with that though.

@Nort
Most mass shootings in the US are done by white males.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:32 pm 
Sanno
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mèþru wrote:
@Nort
Most mass shootings in the US are done by white males.


Nort wasn't denying that. But obviously most people in the US are white, so you'd expect most shooters to be white. Nort is saying (I don't know if it's true but it wouldn't surprise me*) that the percentage of white shooters is lower than the percentage of white people as a whole.


*shooters are usually socially marginalised and underprivileged, which are both things more common in the non-white communities in the US.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:49 pm 
Sumerul
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Salmoneus wrote:
vijay: how should those conversations go, then? Should people not mention bad things like school shootings?

If they're not going to contribute anything to the topic then what's the point?


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