A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Hydroeccentricity »

Considering that EU members don't even have to agree on jus sanguinis or jus soli in determining citizenship, it would appear that the EU in general doesn't place strict rules on how member states define their own national citizenship.
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by vampireshark »

Hydroeccentricity wrote:Considering that EU members don't even have to agree on jus sanguinis or jus soli in determining citizenship, it would appear that the EU in general doesn't place strict rules on how member states define their own national citizenship.
This is true: I think the only thing is that a citizen of a country that's a member of the EU (with the exception of the exceptionally-complicated UK situation and the different degrees of citizenship) is an EU citizen, and I would like to say the EU recommends for naturalization a period of residence not longer than 10 years. But the citizenship laws in each country differ quite wildly: for example, while most EU countries permit multiple citizenship, Germany, Austria, and Spain very heavily restrict it. It's also perhaps worth noting that since Ireland's change to their citizenship law in the early 2000s, most EU countries have very limited, if any, jus soli provisions.
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Richard W »

vampireshark wrote:This is true: I think the only thing is that a citizen of a country that's a member of the EU (with the exception of the exceptionally-complicated UK situation and the different degrees of citizenship) is an EU citizen, and I would like to say the EU recommends for naturalization a period of residence not longer than 10 years.
The Danish realm is also complicated. The residents of the Faeroes are not EU citizens, while those of Greenland (the first country to leave the EU) are EU citizens.

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by jmcd »

@VS: Germany eased their citizenship laws in 2014 though.

@Richard: Denmark seems to be runner-up in topsy turvy citizenship ideas at the moment.

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Raphael »

In today's news, a Tory MP used the n-word at a public event, and as a result, "the whip was withdrawn from her", which is apparently British Parliament speak for throwing her out of the "Tory group" in Parliament. Her behavior is, of course, repulsive in itself (she issued a typical "I'm sorry people were offended" non-apology), but it also raises the question of whether she's now technically an independent MP. and if so, whether that means that the already slim Tory+DUP majority in the Commons has now been reduced by one. And if that's the case, how likely is it that other Tory MPs will also do or say repulsive things, get their whips withdrawn, and shrink the Tory+DUP majority even more?

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Salmoneus »

Raphael wrote:In today's news, a Tory MP used the n-word at a public event, and as a result, "the whip was withdrawn from her", which is apparently British Parliament speak for throwing her out of the "Tory group" in Parliament.
Regarding offensive language: she used the phrase
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"nigger in the woodpile"
. Oddly, this isn't the first time a Tory has had difficulties with that expression: a Lord used it in Parliament a few years ago. However, he dealt with it very admirably: he instantly apologised after saying it and explained that he had "left his brains behind" that day. Since he was a really old Tory guy, who had a) grown up in an era when that was a turn of phrase, and b) had probably never actually seen a black person in his life and just used the word in an idiom with no actual meaning behind it, people more or less were willing to accept his apology. Since this MP is much younger, and didn't apologise until someone reported what she had said (i.e. she didn't instantly apologise for a slip of the tongue), people are going to be a lot less tolerant of her.
To be fair, her apology wasn't a bare-faced 'sorry you were offended', in that she did acknowledge that she had made a mistake. However, she didn't do it very gracefully - she said that she had made the remark "unintentionally". Yeah. There's also a bit of a kerfuffle, with people like Chuka Umunna (hello again!) pointing out that she made her remark in front of three other Tory MPs who didn't so much as blink, let alone chastise her. Not sure there'll be any legs to it, though.


Regarding the whip: whips are many things:
- the whip is the pressure a party puts on its members to vote the right way. It originated in the phrase that the party "whipped in" its MPs to the Commons to make sure they attended for key votes.
- specifically, there is a document, called the whip, circulated regularly telling MPs how to vote
- specifically, the whip specified both the right vote, and how important it is to vote. It does this by underlining things with increasing force. An expression commonly heard is a three-line whip - this means the item has been underlined three times, indicating that an MP's vote is absolutely required of them. Defying a three-line whip is considered tantamount to mutiny. And yes, we always call it "defying" the whip
- those who obey the whip are whipped, and the party applies the whip to them. However, the party may 'withdraw the whip', and this means that they stop telling them how to vote
- because of this, the whip symbolises the link between the party and the MP. If the party withdraws the whip, they also withdraw their public sanctioning of the MP. This means they're no longer in the parliamentary group, although it doesn't necessarily mean they're ejected from the party as a national organisation, which is a stronger level of punishment.
- the whips are also party officials whose job it is to apply the whip.
Her behavior is, of course, repulsive in itself (she issued a typical "I'm sorry people were offended" non-apology), but it also raises the question of whether she's now technically an independent MP. and if so, whether that means that the already slim Tory+DUP majority in the Commons has now been reduced by one. And if that's the case, how likely is it that other Tory MPs will also do or say repulsive things, get their whips withdrawn, and shrink the Tory+DUP majority even more?
Losing MPs in this way is rare - it's unusual to do something so horrible that the party has to stop associating with you, but at the same time not so horrible as to be forced to resign as an MP. However, losing MPs through a combination of death, resignation, better job offers, appointment to the house of lords or other state position incompatible with being an MP, or occasionally even defection, is not uncommon. Major was re-elected in 1992 with a majority of 21, but his government became a minority in 1996, following eight deaths (and subsequent byelection defeats) and three defections to other parties*. Likewise, the Wilson-Callaghan government lost its (already tiny) majority in a few years.

One interesting wrinkle: MPs can resign, triggering a by-election ("special election" for the US), but then stand in that by-election. They usually (though rarely!) do this on a point of principle. David Davis won his own by-election having called the election to highlight the issue of civil liberties. Zac Goldsmith lost his by-election having fulfilled a promise to resign if the government OKed airport expansion near his constituency.


*two famous examples: Nicholas Fairburn was a notorious old Tory, famed for his habit of calling rape victims "tauntresses" (and other MPs "twerps" if male and "hags" if female). His funeral (resulting from his alcoholism) was immediately followed by the revelation of an illegitimate child, which his widow publically commented "makes the mourning easier". Notorious for infidelity, he's since been accused of child rape. And then there's poor Stephen Milligan, once considered a future PM, but now famous for being discovered hanged, wearing women's underwear with a bin-bag on his head with a tangerine in his mouth. This was before people knew that people did things like that. It was seen as an ideological undermining of government policy.**

**Not relevent to anything, but just because politics used to be more fun when I was a child...
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Major attempted to distract from Maastricht (i.e. Brexit avant le lettre) by calling for the country to go "back to basics", and traditional values of courtesy, neighbourliness and decency. Other Tories were leading a crusade against single mothers at the time (some of them didn't even TRY marrying the father! complained John Redwood, who is still around and one of the MPs who didn't object to that woodpile phrase), and Back to Basics was taken as a moral policy (though the intention was probably more anodyne). This emphasis on traditional family values was undermined when:
- Steven "Shagger" Norris was revealed to be conducting three affairs simultaneously, with women who didn't know about each other
- Tim Yeo, who helped lead the campaign demonising single mothers, was found to have fathered an illegitimate child with a single mother
- Alan Duncan used a government policy to enable the underprivilaged to get houses to get himself a new house
- the Earl of Caithness conducted an affair that led his wife to kill herself
- David Ashby denied abandoning his wife for another man.
- Gary Waller had an illegitimate child with the secretary of one of his colleagues
- Stephen Milligan died
- Hartley Booth, a Methodist lay preacher, had to resign after being victimised by a young woman who cruelly "seduced him into kissing and cuddling"
- Michael Brown was revealed to have taken a Caribbean holiday with another man under the age of consent. [The Tories were maintaining the gay AOC at 21, higher than the heterosexual AOC, which made a Tory having sex with a 20-year-old man kind of a bad headline...]
- David Tredinnick, Graham Riddick, Tim Smith and Neil Hamilton (now head of UKIP in Wales) resigned over taking cash in exchange for asking certain questions in Parliament
- Robert Hughes was found to have responded to a woman who had come to him for help escaping from an abusive relationship by... having sex with her
- Richard Spring was entrapped by a newspaper into having a threesome with a male friend and the friend's girlfriend
- Jonathan Aitkin resigned in order to pursue a libel case against those who had accused him of accepting hotel stays from Saudi princes, having inappropriate financial arrangements with arms dealers while minister for defence, and of paying for prostitutes for Saudi princes. He vowed to fight against the libel with "the shield of justice and the simple sword of truth", and then was jailed for perjury.
- Allan Stewart threatened protesters with a pickaxe
- Rod Richards, MP for a religious area, who had championed Back to Basics, was found to have had an affair. His resignation was further mocked for instituting a new "one bonk and you're out" policy.
- David Willetts inappropriately intervened in a parliamentary enquiry
- Jerry Hayes had an affair with an 18-year-old boy
[/qu
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by alice »

Salmoneus wrote:
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Jonathan Aitkin resigned in order to pursue a libel case against those who had accused him of accepting hotel stays from Saudi princes, having inappropriate financial arrangements with arms dealers while minister for defence, and of paying for prostitutes for Saudi princes. He vowed to fight against the libel with "the shield of justice and the simple sword of truth", and then was jailed for perjury.
More precisely, Johnathan Aitken's words were "If it falls to me to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it." He was as self-righteous as this sounds.
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Salmoneus »

He couldn't even get that right. Everyone quotes it with the sword of truth last, because clearly "and the simple sword of truth" is how that sentence is meant to end dramatically. He got it all backwards.

And now he's a succesful moralising public speaker. He "found God" in prison (18 months in low security), which has made him even more condescending and self-righteous than when he was a corrupt politician and perjurer. He's made a lucrative career selling Christian prayer books, and, for some reason, the official biography of the former dictator of Kazakhstan. He's President of Christian Solidarity Worldwide.

Jonathan Aitken is not to be confused with Jeffrey Archer, who was ALSO a Tory MP, and ALSO accused of misconduct, and ALSO launched a libel case, and ALSO ended up in jail, and ALSO made a lot of money selling books. Archer wasn't finally disgraced until after Major's government had ended, although the original libel case he perjured himself in was under Thatcher. [famously, he won his libel case, against journalists who accused him of consorting with prostitutes, because the judge directed the jury to consider whether it was even possible that a man with such a "fragrant" wife (the judge had been leering over her through the whole trial) would ever need to hire a prostitute*]



*specifically, the judge's direction to the jury ran:
Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? [...] Is [Archer] in need of cold, unloving, rubber-insulated sex in a seedy hotel round about quarter to one on a Tuesday morning after an evening at the Caprice?"
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Salmoneus wrote:
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Jeffrey Archer, who was ALSO a Tory MP, and ALSO accused of misconduct, and ALSO launched a libel case, and ALSO ended up in jail, and ALSO made a lot of money selling books. Archer wasn't finally disgraced until after Major's government had ended, although the original libel case he perjured himself in was under Thatcher. [famously, he won his libel case, against journalists who accused him of consorting with prostitutes, because the judge directed the jury to consider whether it was even possible that a man with such a "fragrant" wife (the judge had been leering over her through the whole trial) would ever need to hire a prostitute*]



*specifically, the judge's direction to the jury ran:
Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? [...] Is [Archer] in need of cold, unloving, rubber-insulated sex in a seedy hotel round about quarter to one on a Tuesday morning after an evening at the Caprice?"
Bloody hell, I knew Jeffrey Archer was a total bastard who was treated unduly leniently for his actions (I mean he's now in the House of Lords for pity's sake), but this is just another level of establishment stitch-up. :(
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by linguoboy »

Sal's description of Fairbairn led me to Google him. What a piece of work. That, in turn, led me to the Elm Guest House and thence to Cyril Smith. I never realised how closely Mr Creosote had been modeled on an actual person before.

And now I'm just happy we have a shower at work.

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by alice »

Drain the swamp, yes. But what do you put in its place? More people?
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Raphael »

alice wrote:Drain the swamp, yes. But what do you put in its place? More people?
Hey, there's currently a thread on the effects of automation in this forum...

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by linguoboy »

alice wrote:Drain the swamp, yes. But what do you put in its place? More people?
Seems like even sortition could hardly produce a worse result.

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by mèþru »

What about the Aliyevs?
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Raphael »

They've got their own thread now: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=44843

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Update: surprising nobody, Sir Vince Cable has been elected leader of the Lib Dems. I say "elected"; they didn't bother actually voting on it because nobody else volunteered.

It's not hard to see why: Cable is clearly the obvious candidate. If nothing else, he's the only current Lib Dem anybody else has ever heard of.

Sir Vince is a former economist: with a degree from Cambridge and a PhD in economics, he's been an economics lecturer, a senior advisor to the Leader of the Labour Party, a senior advisor to the secretary-general of the commonwealth, a senior official within the government of Kenya, an official at the foreign office, and the chief economist at Shell. He rose to public consciousness during the financial crisis, when he was a regular talking head explaining what was going wrong - a privilege gained by having publically warned of the coming crisis before and throughout 2007 and 2008 (his book on the topic became a bestseller); he briefly served as caretaker party leader before the election of Nick Clegg, and then as deputy leader, and served in the Coalition as Business Secretary. He was one of the few LDs to come out of that with honour, having served loyally enough to not look like a troublemaking traitor, while at the same time regularly trying to distance his party from the tories ideologically. Nonetheless, he lost his seat in 2015, only regaining it in this recent election.


Sir Vince is an unexciting but appealing TV presence, combining a gentle voice and professorial manner with a dry, cutting, if not always expertly-delivered, wit. He's got a good avuncular image. He appeared on Strictly Come Dancing in 2010, and unlike most celebrities to do that he's kept up the hobby: future engagements for him include participating in the national ballroom dancing championships, and the launch of his first novel (a thriller). His downsides as a politician? Lingering baggage from the Coalition; a lack of fireworks in his TV persona (although against May and Corbyn that's less of an issue); and his age. Sir Vince is currently 74. Ironically, he considered a run for the leadership in 2007, but declined to stand, because it was felt he was too old to be a viable candidate (this was to replace a man kicked out of the leadership for being, at 66, too old).

He's from the left-wing of the party, and has criticised the concept of capitalism, as well as particular issues like inequality and excessive executive pay. On the other hand, he's the former chief economist of Shell, and has authored government papers praising free trade and globalism, so he's difficult to attack as naive or blinkered ideologically.

He'll probably be a reasonable leader, for a while - he's popular, TV people like him, he'll hopefully keep the party in the news without doing anything stupid. On the other hand, he's 74 and not exactly a star performer, so I wouldn't expect any flood of new members flocking to supporting him.


[His personal life is interesting too. Married twice. His first marriage was an interracial marriage with a Goan, back when that wasn't that common - they met when they were spending their holidays volunteering as nurses at a mental hospital. She died of cancer in 2001, after an illness where he had to work as her career. One of his grandsons, Ayrton Cable, from Slovakia, is apparently one of the world's leading international child activists - 14 years old, he's founded several charitable projects, some international humanitarian awards, and a network of schools across subsaharan africa to share the fruits of his enlightenment with the less fortunate; he works for a Finnish gaming company and writes for the Huffington Post; he's been making popular documentaries since he was 9, was runner-up in a photojournalist prize at 10, and has been nominated for an international peace prize. This has nothing to do with Sir Vince particularly, but it made me bitter and cyncial (I'm guessing the kid's a wanker in person), so it seemed like it was worth sharing...]
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Well it turns out that just because student loans "aren't like normal debt and function more as a graduate tax"
…which doesn't make it sound that much better.
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by Salmoneus »

What, you think being 40 grand in debt to a loan shark doesn't sound any worse than paying an extra percent on income tax over a certain threshold?


It should be noted, however, that the government is now planning to change the system. Where currently student 'loans' are variably interest-free or have below-inflation interest rates, the government wants to impose punitive interest rates many times higher than inflation - presumably to punish poor people for having the temerity to want an education.
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

Post by alice »

Salmoneus wrote:It should be noted, however, that the government is now planning to change the system. Where currently student 'loans' are variably interest-free or have below-inflation interest rates, the government wants to impose punitive interest rates many times higher than inflation - presumably to punish poor people for having the temerity to want an education.
You do know which power is (nominally) in Government, don't you?
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Salmoneus wrote:What, you think being 40 grand in debt to a loan shark doesn't sound any worse than paying an extra percent on income tax over a certain threshold?
Except if you make it sound like a tax, it's not “paying extra over a certain threshold of income”, but ”paying extra over a certain level of education”.
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Pole, the wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:What, you think being 40 grand in debt to a loan shark doesn't sound any worse than paying an extra percent on income tax over a certain threshold?
Except if you make it sound like a tax, it's not “paying extra over a certain threshold of income”, but ”paying extra over a certain level of education”.
It's both - it only applies to graduates, but it's only applied once you're earning over a certain threshold.
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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Yeah, in theory. But it seems I only narrowly got out of being called to court because I supposedly the Students Loan Company hundreds of pounds because I supposedly hadn't sent them a letter indicating my earnings on time. When another person from the same organisation had already told me everything was fine. Further difficulty added by my employer having changed due to the original employer having insufficient funds due to insufficient funding.

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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They recently collected money (that I don’t have) from me for the same reason. I tried to explain to them how physically posting things might take longer than the time they allow between sending letters and starting to collect the repayments, especially in places where the post can take literally months to arrive (last month I got a birthday card from England—I was born in February), but nope.

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Re: A Very Brief Explanation of the British Election

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Je compatis.
I sympathise.

Already here, the distance, and even more so the border agents, usually mean a month-long wait. There it's even longer.

That's why I changed the address to my parents' place, and then they scan the documents for me. Would that be possible in your case?

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