2L Monumental Style Conscript: Vines

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
User avatar
Anguipes
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:11 pm
Location: Assiah of Yesod
Contact:

2L Monumental Style Conscript: Vines

Post by Anguipes »

Wherein I work on a logosyllabic conscript.


Here follows a long boring section of theory/background. You can skip it and scroll down to point and laugh at my terrible art, if you like.


The language this script is for is non-naturalistic, with a closed vocabulary of 4373 monosyllabic words covering all but one of the possible syllables. Ultimately I want a character for each of these words.

Vocabulary is ordered on what are (to varying degrees of looseness) nested sets of hyponyms under a hypernym. The grand hypernym is the word for the supreme being. Under that is the four genders. Under each of the genders is the hypernym of four categories of words, corresponding to the sixteen original gods/aspects of the supreme being. Each of these has sixteen hyponyms, again corresponding to the gods, and in turn each of these have sixteen hyponyms. 1 + 4 + 16 + 162 + 163 = 4373 words.

Here's an example section:

Code: Select all

relationship, be related to
	Directional Motion	("to go via")
	Kinship			("kin")
	Spatial Adpositions	("to be at/in [a place]")
		be in the same place as
		be above
		be east of
		be north-east of
		be outside
		be south-east of
		be north-west of
		be near to
		be at the centre of
		be far from
		be inside
		be around, surrounding
		be south-west of
		be west of
		be below
		be beyond
	Temporal Adposition	("to be at/in [a time]")
	Conjunctions
	Genitives
	Honorifics
	Demonstratives
	etc...
The position of most words in this structure (all but the first five words/two levels, the Supreme being and the genders) can be indicated with a combination of gods. From this example, "to be near to" is Anthesis/Genesis/Synthesis: Anthesis (relation words), subsection Genesis (spatial adpositions), subsection Synthesis (specific word).

The phonetic components will be based on the animal and plant vocabulary, which gives me something between 392 and 512 basic phonetic characters. The structure of the animals section is mostly mapped out, but I haven't stared on the plants yet (even I get bored of classifying things). Animals (or more extendedly, "beings") is the section of vocabulary under the god Kinesis, and plants are under the goddess Gnosis.


The Animals

Right now I have a 14*14 grid of animals largely planned out, based on the current fourteen gods*.

Edit: The 14*14 grid of animals is complete, and can be found here.

*There were sixteen originally. One (Hubris) deleted herself (kind of...) and one (Hypostasis) is pretty much synonymous with the Supreme Being. These two tend to be left of the current count, but they still form part of the vocabulary structure.
Last edited by Anguipes on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:53 am, edited 21 times in total.
"It is quite certain, in particular, that I have always been insane." ~ Aleister Crowley

"Save us all from arrogant men/And all the causes they're for/I won't be righteous again/I'm not that sure any more." ~ Shades of Grey, Billy Joel

User avatar
Anguipes
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:11 pm
Location: Assiah of Yesod
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Sketchpad

Post by Anguipes »

I'm now interweaving working on categorising animals and making relatively detailed, "monumental" style drawings of each of the animals (or representatives of the "types", at least). Problem is, I suck at art :P The monumental style will eventually be stylised into something that will end up looking too much like Chinese however hard I try to avoid it.

Here's the fourteen birds:

Image

Some of these need cleaning up, but that's the basic idea. I was aiming for something between Mayan glyphs and heraldic animals. I'm not going to give the names just yet; I'd like to see how recognisable I've made them.

I've done multiple versions of the two long necked ones at the bottom; which style is best?

Image

Edit: And here's some other quick previews:

Image
"It is quite certain, in particular, that I have always been insane." ~ Aleister Crowley

"Save us all from arrogant men/And all the causes they're for/I won't be righteous again/I'm not that sure any more." ~ Shades of Grey, Billy Joel

User avatar
maıráí
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by maıráí »

:D :D This is very awesome. :D :D

Anguipes wrote: I've done multiple versions of the two long necked ones at the bottom; which style is best?

Image
I would personally go with the ones with curved and double-curved necks; they're pretty distinct.

User avatar
Pogostick Man
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 894
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:21 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Pogostick Man »

No.1oser wrote:I would personally go with the ones with curved and double-curved necks; they're pretty distinct.
Seconded; they have a nice Mayan flair.
(Avatar via Happy Wheels Wiki)
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by clawgrip »

This is very nice. It definitely has a distinctive style, and while the inspiration you mentioned is recognizable, it still has a unique and interesting appearance of its own.

GBR
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:56 am

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by GBR »

Cool glyphs, bro.

I'm partial to the middle long necked birds. Looking forward to seeing the gradual stylization.

User avatar
masako
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:31 pm
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by masako »

No.1oser wrote:This is very awesome.
clawgrip wrote:This is very nice. It definitely has a distinctive style, and while the inspiration you mentioned is recognizable, it still has a unique and interesting appearance of its own.
GBR wrote:Cool glyphs, bro.

I'm partial to the middle long necked birds. Looking forward to seeing the gradual stylization.
I agree with all of the above.

Keep up the awesome work.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Sketchpad

Post by Vardelm »

Anguipes wrote:Edit: And here's some other quick previews:

Image
That's a tail in the background of the 2nd two, correct? :wink:

Very cool so far! I'm looking forward to the rest.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
WechtleinUns
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:45 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by WechtleinUns »

Very nice. It looks like you've put a lot of work into this, Anguipipes. Keep that kind of persistance up and you'll do great.

User avatar
Chuma
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Hyperborea

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Chuma »

Looks really cool. I guess it'll be a lot of work if you're going to make 4373 symbols, though.

User avatar
Burke
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:55 am
Location: Red Sox

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Burke »

This is quality stuff here. I love your distinct style.

I would go with the middle long necked ones though. It is distinctive enough and looks like good natural art.

On that note, I would love seeing the double long windy neck for a vulture just because I so often hear them called "snakes with wings."

My favorite is the bird with the worm.
Formerly a vegetable

User avatar
Anguipes
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:11 pm
Location: Assiah of Yesod
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Anguipes »

Thanks everyone!

I'm going with the single curved necks. Now I'm working on the cats.
Vardelm wrote:That's a tail in the background of the 2nd two, correct? :wink:
No, it's a massive cock. Ithyphallic art for teh win. (...yes, it's a tail)
Chuma wrote:I guess it'll be a lot of work if you're going to make 4373 symbols, though.
What conlanging project isn't a lot of work?
Garlic wrote:My favorite is the bird with the worm.
That's supposed to be its tongue - it's a hummingbird! Top to bottom, right to left: albatross, finch, hawk, hummingbird, pheasant, owl, cockatoo, hoopoe, vulture, woodpecker, jackdaw, ostrich, swan, crane.

How much do people want to hear about the biology/taxonomy/general reasons behind the specific animal choices? It's not vital, but does represent a hell of a lot of groundwork I had/have to do before even starting to draw pretty pictures.
"It is quite certain, in particular, that I have always been insane." ~ Aleister Crowley

"Save us all from arrogant men/And all the causes they're for/I won't be righteous again/I'm not that sure any more." ~ Shades of Grey, Billy Joel

cromulant
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by cromulant »

Anguipes wrote:How much do people want to hear about the biology/taxonomy/general reasons behind the specific animal choices?
I wanna hear about it please.

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

Yes, me too.
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
maıráí
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by maıráí »

Yessssssss.

User avatar
Sevly
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: (x, y, z, t)

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Sevly »

Just joining in on the chorus of praise. Really neat stuff, looking forward to more. Such as those reasons. As much as you've got.

(No, really. The theory is as interesting as the artwork.)

User avatar
Anguipes
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:11 pm
Location: Assiah of Yesod
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Anguipes »

A Quick Guide to the Gods

Kinesis (Q) - motion, travel, fate
Metamorphosis (Q) - change, magic
Crisis (Q) - force, war, overcoming obstacles
Anthesis (A) - sun goddess, generosity, power, beauty
Genesis (A) - creation (ex nihilo), life
Nemesis (A) - annihilation, retributive justice
Synthesis (A) - joining, building
Telesis (S) - purpose, individuality
Analysis (S) - division, decay, death, childbirth
Ascesis (S) - moon god, withdrawal, prudence
Physis (S) - cooperation, systems, society
Noesis (D) - justice, balance, (re)distribution
Gnosis (D) - knowledge, contemplation
Stasis (D) - stillness, acceptance, contentment


Taxonomy


The catalog of animals in Vana is based on those from modern Earth, but the exact characteristics of the animals will end up tweaked towards fitting the Chain of Being / Divine Order that permeates Vana.

The taxonomy stems directly from the original Forms of creation. There are sixteen Orders of being, each with sixteen Families. Families are again divided and sub-divided by sixteens into more specific forms. Physically similar animals are grouped together. These categories include all life in Vana - if it doesn't fit, it doesn't Exist*.

The first Order contains the gods and angelic beings; humans are lowest of these. The sixteenth Order no longer exists as true formed beings, and their souls tend to hang around whatever matter they can attach themselves to; rocks, rivers, lakes, clouds, air currents, anything. The second through fifteenth Orders are animals as we would understand them.

The first and sixteenth Families of each order are currently reserved for "mythical" creatures, which I still need to figure out.

*which isn't to say it doesn't exist, but it's certainly not part of the Divine Order and therefore shouldn't.



ʔv̄t - Birds


ʔj̀vt - Gull (Kinesis)

Represented by an albatross, includes seabirds such as gulls, auks, gannets, boobies, cormorants, tropicbirds and petrels. Attributed to Kinesis for association with travel.


ʔŕt - Songbird (Metamorphosis)
Represented by a finch, includes the passerines (except corvids) and doves/pidgeons. Attributed to Metamorphosis for great variety.


nvj̀t - Raptor (Crisis)

Represented by a hawk, includes birds of prey such as falcons, buzzards, eagles, kites and osprey. Attributed to Crisis for being powerful predators.


nvv̄jt - Hummingbird (Anthesis)
Represented by a hummingbird, includes hummingbirds, sunbirds and kingfishers. Attributed to Anthesis for beauty.


nvŕjt - Fowl (Genesis)
Represented by a Ring-Necked Pheasant, includes grouse, quail, partridge, turkey, peafowl, junglefowl etc. (galliformes). Attributed to Genesis for fertility.


nr̀vk - Owl (Nemesis)

Represented by a horned owl. Attributed to Nemesis for being nocturnal.


nj̄vk - Parrot (Synthesis)
Represented by a cockatoo, includes parrots, parakeets, cockatiels etc. (psittacines)


nv́rk - Hoopoe (Telesis)

Represented by a Hopooe, includes birds with long curved beaks and short legs such as earthcreepers.


njj̀rk - Vulture (Analysis)
Represented by a vulture, includes vultures and condors. Attributed to Analysis as a scavenger.


njv̄k - Woodpecker (Ascesis)
Represented by a Pileated Woodpecker. Attributed to Ascesis for seclusion and work.


njŕk - Corvid (Physis)

Represented by a jackdaw, includes all corvids such as ravens and crows. Attributed to Physis for social behaviour.


gvj̀k - Ratite (Noesis)

Represented by an ostrich, includes all ratites such as emus, kiwis, rhea and cassowarys. Attributed to Noesis for the ostrich's herd-following behaviour.


gvr̄vʔ - Waterfowl (Gnosis)

Represented by the Mute Swan, includes waterfowl such as ducks, geese, loons and grebe. Attributed to Gnosis for association with water and fish.


gvj́vʔ - Crane (Stasis)
Represented by a Demoiselle Crane, includes all long-legged wading birds. Attributed to Stasis for balance and association with shellfish.


Missing - penguins and large-billed birds like toucans and hornbills. I might merge Woodpeckers/Hoopoes and add a toucan/hornbill family. Anything else significant I've overlooked?
"It is quite certain, in particular, that I have always been insane." ~ Aleister Crowley

"Save us all from arrogant men/And all the causes they're for/I won't be righteous again/I'm not that sure any more." ~ Shades of Grey, Billy Joel

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

What do you draw these in, Anguipes?
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

cromulant
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by cromulant »

The drawings are beautiful. I'm interested in understanding what's going on though.

So: there is a hierarchy at work here. Gods, angels and humans at the top, inanimate natural objects at the bottom, and animals in between.

Does the sequence that you've listed the 14 animal orders in also reflect a hierarchy? Are birds "higher" than insects, insects higher than bears, bears higher than cats, etc.?

And within the bird order: are gulls higher than songbirds? Are songbirds higher than raptors?

If so, what is meant by "higher" and "lower"? How does a higher being differ from a lower being/what are the ramifications of rank?

If not--if no such hierarchy exists--disregard all the above questions.

Where do plants fit in?

What do Q, A and S stand for?

What's going on with those vowelless words? Are they consonantal roots? Curious to know about the actual language that this script represents, if that isn't getting too far afield. Or at least the inventory and phonotactics.

Which of the beings of Vana use this script? And how are the glyphs produced--do they take the time to write them all out, or do they use...stamps?

I hope you have enjoyed my questions and that they weren't answered somewhere in your posts already, though I did look. This is scintillating concraft.

cromulant
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by cromulant »

I thought of another:

You said the 256 families "are again divided and sub-divided by sixteens into more specific forms." How many times does this division reiterate? Just the twice you mentioned (yielding 65,536 species?) or am I taking "divided and sub-divided" too literally?

Does this pristine symmetry ever break down at any point? Does any taxon ever break into a non-16 number of subtaxa?

What would happen if a species were to go extinct? Has that ever happened? Can it even happen?

Sorry if too many questions, but questions imply interest.

User avatar
Anguipes
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:11 pm
Location: Assiah of Yesod
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Anguipes »

Elector Dark wrote:What do you draw these in, Anguipes?
Right now, my old version of Inkscape that crashes ever so often.
cromulant wrote:Does the sequence that you've listed the 14 animal orders in also reflect a hierarchy? Are birds "higher" than insects, insects higher than bears, bears higher than cats, etc.?

And within the bird order: are gulls higher than songbirds? Are songbirds higher than raptors?
Yes to all.
cromulant wrote:If so, what is meant by "higher" and "lower"? How does a higher being differ from a lower being/what are the ramifications of rank?
Higher beings are more noble, more perfect, closer to the ideals of the original Forms and the Supreme Being... at least in theory. This is all strongly influenced by the idea of the Scala Naturae.
cromulant wrote:Where do plants fit in?
Between animals and matter. The sixteenth rank (belonging to the ex-Goddess Hubris) tend to confuse matters - historically it fitted in properly, with recognisable animals and plants, but now it doesn't.
cromulant wrote:What do Q, A and S stand for?
Those refer to the four genders, Quixotic, Aldonzaic, Sanchoic and Dulcineac, and which gender that particular god is.
cromulant wrote:What's going on with those vowelless words?

They aren't actually vowelless. It's a quirk of the romanisation, via the native understanding of phonemes, which conflates vowels and approximants ([w] and <v>, [ɹ] and [a] <r>, [j] and <j>).
cromulant wrote:Which of the beings of Vana use this script? And how are the glyphs produced--do they take the time to write them all out, or do they use...stamps?

Most of them, or at least most of the ones who have a need for writing, use a derivation of this script. The forms I'm producing at the moment are full, monumental or artistic styles. They'll eventually be rendered down into something much more abstract, like Chinese characters, which will be the standard form of writing. The basic idea is that this is the first, heavenly script and language for the current Creation, of which all others are corruptions.

cromulant wrote:You said the 256 families "are again divided and sub-divided by sixteens into more specific forms." How many times does this division reiterate? Just the twice you mentioned (yielding 65,536 species?) or am I taking "divided and sub-divided" too literally?

Does this pristine symmetry ever break down at any point? Does any taxon ever break into a non-16 number of subtaxa?

I've not gone into that much detail yet. In theory everything is perfectly ordered, but in practice the physical world is a messy, disordered and sinful place. It will also depend on how closely I decide to stick to Earth-like biodiversity - the closer, the more it will require some families (e.g. songbirds or beetles) having many more subtle subdivisions than others (e.g. lions, giraffes).

cromulant wrote:What would happen if a species were to go extinct? Has that ever happened? Can it even happen?

Extinction, and evolution by natural selection, are possible, but tied explicitly to the imperfect physical and temporal nature of the world. They're both therefore a bad thing, that moves reality away from the ideals and the Divine Order. Vana hasn't really been around long enough for either to be a significant factor, though.
"It is quite certain, in particular, that I have always been insane." ~ Aleister Crowley

"Save us all from arrogant men/And all the causes they're for/I won't be righteous again/I'm not that sure any more." ~ Shades of Grey, Billy Joel

cromulant
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:12 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by cromulant »

How long's Vana been around?

Are any of the animals sentient?

User avatar
WechtleinUns
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:45 pm

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by WechtleinUns »

I like the names that you have given to the sixten families. Also, the four genders just smack of Don Quixote and Cervantes-type spanish, if you know what I mean. That's a very good thing. :)

User avatar
Anguipes
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:11 pm
Location: Assiah of Yesod
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Anguipes »

cromulant wrote:How long's Vana been around?
I've not decided, but a 6,000 - 10,000 year range would be the obvious choice.
cromulant wrote:Are any of the animals sentient?
They all are, after their own fashion. The best way I can think of to describe it is like the rabbits in Watership Down - they're intelligent, they have their own language and cultures, but they're still fundamentally rabbits (rather than the human-in-a-different-form anthropomorphism of, say, Beatrix Potter). The different types of intelligence can be quite alien to each other, and full inter-species communication is difficult.

In other news
, the cats are done, as is a test example of stylising. Will post tomorrow when I've sorted out image uploads etc.
"It is quite certain, in particular, that I have always been insane." ~ Aleister Crowley

"Save us all from arrogant men/And all the causes they're for/I won't be righteous again/I'm not that sure any more." ~ Shades of Grey, Billy Joel

User avatar
Anguipes
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 6:11 pm
Location: Assiah of Yesod
Contact:

Re: Second Language Monumental Style Conscript Sketchpad

Post by Anguipes »

Image

nvr̀t - Cats


ʔjŕjp - Cheetah (Kinesis)

Attributed to Kinesis for speed.


ʔr̀vt - Mongoose (Metamorphosis)
Includes all mongooses (mongeese?) that aren't highly social.


ʔj̄vt - Tiger (Crisis)



ʔv́t - Lion (Anthesis)


nvj̄t - Genet (Genesis)
Represented by a Cape Genet, includes all arboreal viverrids.


nvv́jt - Civet (Nemesis)

Represented by an African Civet, includes all nocturnal, . Attributed to Nemesis for being nocturnal.


nr̀jt - Serval (Synthesis)
Represented by a Serval, includes all medium-sized cats.


nr̄vk - Wildcat (Telesis)

Represented by a tabby patterned cat, includes all small cats.


nj́vk - Raccoon (Analysis)
Attributed to Analysis as a scavenger.


njv̀rk - Lynx (Ascesis)
Represented by a Canada Lynx. Attributed to Ascesis as solitary.


njj̄rk - Meercat (Physis)

Represented by a Meercat, includes all highly social mongooses and similar animals. Attributed to Physis for social behaviour.


njv́k - Leopard (Noesis)



gvr̀k - Jaguar (Gnosis)

Attributed to Gnosis for association with water.


gvj̄k - Puma (Stasis)
Represented by a Puma (Puma concolor). Attributed to Physis for silence.



Image
Here's a trial stylisation, more proof of concept than anything but it shows the types of lines I want to use - hooks and 3-shapes. I chose one of the more detail-heavy glyphs to start from, the civet. The second stage tried to capture as much of the components as possible in simple lines. The third starts to merge and regularise the lines. The fourth (final two glyphs) takes that process further, and looses some unnecessary detail. Gyph 4 shows the individual strokes in different colours, ten in total (maybe one or two more - the bright green and blue-green strokes might be split). Glyph 5 is a shrunk down, single colour version of 4. I imagine the process could go further, but for a detail-heavy original I don't think what I've got is too bad.
Last edited by Anguipes on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is quite certain, in particular, that I have always been insane." ~ Aleister Crowley

"Save us all from arrogant men/And all the causes they're for/I won't be righteous again/I'm not that sure any more." ~ Shades of Grey, Billy Joel

Post Reply