Non-obvious placename pronunciations

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Dewrad »

Ye gods. How could I forget this Welsh classic:

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch [ [ɬanvairˈpuɬ] (note irregular stress pattern). A bit of a cheat, I know, but this is actually how we pronounce the name of the village when not showing off for foreigners.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Astraios »

I guess you could say that some Welsh placenames are non-obvious in pronunciation in English, since the reflexes of /ɬ/ and /ɨ/ and things tend to not be so obvious. For example Llangollen and Llandudno and Cymru in my family are [lan'gɒθlən] and [lan'dɪdnəʊ] and ['kʌmri], but I've heard things like [klan'gɒklən] and [θlan'dʌdnəʊ] and ['sɪmru] - and no English speaker can ever seem to agree who's pronouncing it correctly.

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Yng »

urrrrrgh my mental ears are wincing at those pronunciations
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Astraios »

:D

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Qwynegold »

Viktor77 wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:Ypsilanti- /Ip.sI.l{n.ti/ [I\p.sI\.lE@~.ti].
That should be a Finnish place name. :S [ˈyp.si.lan.ti]
It's Greek, Ypsilantis.
Oh. What does it mean then? Shouldn't it have a H at the beginning?
Viktor77 wrote:Despite the Upper Peninsula of Michigan's huge Finnish population, it seems Swedish town names abound and not Finnish ones such as Bergland, Germfask, Bessemer (?), Tula (this one might actually be Finnish), etc.
Lolwut, Bergland is the only Swedish name of those. Germfask and Bessemer sound like made up Swedish (i.e. not Swedish at all). Isn't Tula in like Tatarstan or something? I can't find it in my atlas now though, and I can't be arsed to Google it.
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Qwynegold wrote:Then there's the maybe not so surprisingly pronunced, but weirdly spelled Växjö /ˈvɛkːˈɧøː/.
What's weird about that? Does Swedish not normally have <x>, or?
Yeah, but usually for /ks/, not for /k/ and half of /ɧ/, combining even two morphemes. The expected spelling is *Väcksjö.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Dewrad »

Yng wrote:urrrrrgh my mental ears are wincing at those pronunciations
Hah! When I was actually living there, the range of pronunciations of "Llandudno" from the expat Scousers infesting the town were enough to make me cry. I even heard [flæntundo] once.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by hwhatting »

Qwynegold wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:Ypsilanti- /Ip.sI.l{n.ti/ [I\p.sI\.lE@~.ti].
That should be a Finnish place name. :S [ˈyp.si.lan.ti]
It's Greek, Ypsilantis.
Oh. What does it mean then? Shouldn't it have a H at the beginning?
Why would an H be required? This is Modern Greek, not Classical. And I assume the town is named after a member of the Ypsilantis family.
Qwynegold wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:Despite the Upper Peninsula of Michigan's huge Finnish population, it seems Swedish town names abound and not Finnish ones such as Bergland, Germfask, Bessemer (?), Tula (this one might actually be Finnish), etc.
Lolwut, Bergland is the only Swedish name of those. Germfask and Bessemer sound like made up Swedish (i.e. not Swedish at all). Isn't Tula in like Tatarstan or something? I can't find it in my atlas now though, and I can't be arsed to Google it.
Your atlas doesn't have an index? And come on, googling is really simple in these cases:
Tula in Finland.
Tula in Russia. And no, it's not in Tatarstan.
And as an added bonus, there's also a famous pre-columbian site called Tula in Mexico. I assume that there are Tulas in other parts of the world as well, but now I am getting too lazy to search. ;-)
If Viktor was talking about this Bessemer - it seems to have been a mining town and so probably was named after this guy. So you're right, no Swedish connection at all.
Germfask. The name has an interesting history, but it's indeed not Swedish.

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Zontas »

A few from Maryland; the spelling is leftward, and the approximant pronunciation rightward. I am typing this on my phone so please excuse the lack of IPA. For the most part these pronunciations are of the average DC influenced marylander such as Nortaneous or myself.

Cities

Bowie- /bu'(w)i/
Essex- /ɛs' ɛks/
Havre De Grace- /hæ.və˞ dɨ greɪ̯s/
La Plata- /lə pleɪ̯ɾ.ə/
Laurel- /lɔ˞'ɨl/
Taneytown- /tɑ'ni.taʊ̯n/
Salisbury- /sæl'ɪs.b˞'i/ (or /sɒlz.bə˞'i/)

Counties

Sussex- /sʌs'ɛks/
Wessex- /wɛs'ɛks/
Wicomico- /wɪk.oʊ̯m'ɪk.oʊ̯/
Worcester- /wɔ˞'tʃɛst.ə˞/

Other

Carroll (in anything)- /keɪ̯˞.əl/

Editted Twice
Last edited by Zontas on Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Drydic »

You could have at least used an approximation of X-Sampa (non-perfection is fine when you're on a phone) instead of that bullshit.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Salmoneus »

If only someone had invented a method to convey IPA symbols via only the keys on a normal keyboard....
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Astraios »

Zontas wrote:Essex- Essex
Sussex- Sussex
Wessex- Wessex
How are these irregular?

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Zontas »

Astraios wrote:
Zontas wrote:Essex- Essex
Sussex- Sussex
Wessex- Wessex
How are these irregular?
Because they are pronounced as spelled, unlike in England.

@Drydic I don't have all necessary X-SAMPAe memorized. Apologies.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Herr Dunkel »

And how are they pronounced, pray tell?
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Zontas »

Herr Dunkel wrote:And how are they pronounced, pray tell?
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Kereb »

and can you BELIEVE they pronounce Wicomico like "Wickomicko" ?!?! WHAT A WACKY PLACE TO BE!!!!
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Zontas wrote:
Herr Dunkel wrote:And how are they pronounced, pray tell?
Ezzix
Suzzix
Wezzix
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Yng »

yeah err no nobody except maybe someone in Farmerston, The West Country, Population 12 pronounces them like that
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Zontas »

Kereb wrote:and can you BELIEVE they pronounce Wicomico like "Wickomicko" ?!?! WHAT A WACKY PLACE TO BE!!!!
English spelling dictates it should be /waɪ̯'koʊ̯m.ə'koʊ̯/.

@Yng Huh, I thought /wɛz'ɪks/ was British English standard.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Nortaneous »

Bowie [ˈbu.i] (I already posted this)
La Plata- [lə ˈpleɾə] I think?

Allegheny [ˈæləˌgenɨ] although Wikipedia disagrees with me on the stress. Spelling varies. The county in Maryland is Allegany.
Dorcester is actually spelled Dorchester and isn't irregular
I've never heard the rest pronounced, except Laurel, which is completely predictable
Havre de Grace [ˈhævɚ dɪˈgres] according to Wikipedia

Also:
Salisbury [ˈsɔlzbɚ.ɨ]
Annapolis [əˈnæpəlɪs]
Taneytown [ˈtɔnɨtaun]
Carroll County [ˈkerəl]
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Zontas »

Nortaneous wrote:Bowie [ˈbu.i] (I already posted this)
La Plata- [lə ˈpleɾə] I think?

Allegheny [ˈæləˌgenɨ] although Wikipedia disagrees with me on the stress. Spelling varies. The county in Maryland is Allegany.
Dorcester is actually spelled Dorchester and isn't irregular
I've never heard the rest pronounced, except Laurel, which is completely predictable
The flaptap in La Plata was left out on accident.

Laurel isn't as predictable, as it must be pronounced with an /ɔ˞/ not an /ɒ˞/.
I've gotten away with sounding the /w/ in Bowie my entire life.

As for Allegany, I totally forgot it was spelled differently.

Dorchester likewise.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Herr Dunkel »

How do you even get a rhotic vowel into Laurel, when it doesn't even have a "VrC" or "Vr#" combination?
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Travis B. »

Zontas wrote:Laurel isn't as predictable, as it must be pronounced with an /ɔ˞/ not an /ɒ˞/.
Yes it is, as <aur> normally takes /ɔːr/ in NAE dialects; it should be noted that /ɒr/, as in RP sorry, does not generally exist in them, having been merged into /ɑr/ or /ɔːr/ depending on the word and dialect.

And tip: do not analyze NAE as having rhotic vowels phonemically - use sequences of normal vowels and /r/. Only even mention rhotic vowels in phonetic transcription, and even then only if the dialect being transcribed really does have them. (Not all NAE dialects do; mine for instance does not.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Nortaneous »

Zontas wrote:I've gotten away with sounding the /w/ in Bowie my entire life.
English allows glide insertion in those environments, so that's not surprising.
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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by Ser »

I have a friend whose name is Bowie [baʊi]. It's pronounced that way because that's a sort of anglicization of her Chinese name (Bao-Yi).

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Re: Non-obvious placename pronunciations

Post by zompist »

Zontas wrote:
Essex- /ɛs' ɛks/
Havre De Grace- /hæ.və˞ dɨ greɪ̯s/
Laurel- /lɔ˞'ɨl/
Salisbury- /sæl'ɪs.b˞'i/
Sussex- /sʌs'ɛks/
Wessex- /wɛs'ɛks/
Carroll (in anything)- /keɪ̯˞.əl/
These are all completely regular. ("Havre" might slip people up, but most people should be familiar with the British reversed -re spellings.)

Also:
English spelling dictates it should be /waɪ̯'koʊ̯m.ə'koʊ̯/.
No, not really. For one thing, all bets are off with Algonquian names (the w- signals that it's not Latin or Spanish). For another, even in Latinate words, vowels before a single consonant are often short. Examples:

disappoint, economics, ejaculate, element, frivolous, gratitude, habitual, heresy, idiot, imagine, iniquity, legitimate, liberty, magazine, misery, oligarchy, pitiful, ridicule, rigidity, satisfy, similar, vanish, visible

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