Constructing a proper descendant of English

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Ars Lande
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Ars Lande »

Adjective Recoil wrote:I found this descendant of General American. Maybe it will give you a few ideas?
That's the very page that got me started in the first page :)

Thanks for the comments, everyone, BTW; that's exactly the kind of underreported detail I need. I knew about pre-tonic syllable loss from spellings such as 'Murrican', but had no idea it was so widespread. (I'm lucky in that I included anyway, I figured it was likely to catch on).

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Nortaneous
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Nortaneous »

There are a few things I disagree with there:

* /w/ probably wouldn't merge with /v/; it's realized with pharyngealization, so it'd be more likely to merge with /l/ somehow, or maybe even /r/.
* /θr/ is already shifting to [θɾ], but who knows if that'll last.
* Everything with /r/ is totally insane but I guess it could happen in a thousand years? Non-rhoticity seems more likely, but that's boring. /er ir/ might merge first. (I once went into a CVS to buy earplugs and the cashier thought I'd said 'hair plugs' the first two or three times I asked.)
* I don't know why future Englishes always insist on adding uvulars.

I had a future English once. Maybe I should revive it. But the vowels were a pain in the ass. EDIT: haha oh god it was terrible
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Travis B. »

At least in my dialect, even though it's not GA, a future merger of /l/ and /w/, or at least a conditional merger of the two (e.g. keeping the two separate initially and in the onsets of stressed syllables, but merging them elsewhere) seems very probable, considering that /l/ has [ɰ] (and occasionally [w]) in onsets (except when stressed and initial, where it not infrequently preserved as [ʟ̞]) and various rounded and unrounded back glides in codas and unstressed intervocalic onsets (determined by their exact environment). I have also heard other vaguely GA-ish varieties with people vocalizing coda /l/ as well to something like [ɰ] or [w].

Conversely, I agree that in anything GA-like a merger of /w/ and /v/ seems quite improbable any time soon.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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R.Rusanov
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by R.Rusanov »

Well in my part of New Orleans most coda /l/s are vocalized,

For example /'ɒ:mənd/ <almond> /'kɛjbəw 'kɑr/ <cable car>

I wouldn't be surprised if our odd voiced contrast turned into an Iceland-style aspiration contrast, so we might see something like /'ɑ:mənt/ and /'kʰipo'kɑr/ in the future
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finlay
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by finlay »

i wouldn't use almond as an example, because pronouncing it with /l/ is a spelling pronunciation and the original pronunciation has no /l/.

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Travis B. »

Mall then is a better example. For it I have [ˈmɒ(ː)o̯], showing my realization of /ɔːl/ (both in words that had it historically and words in which it has appeared as a spelling pronunciation).
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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finlay
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by finlay »

also like how far back does L-vocalisation go? because it seems to be found in america and britain... but whether it was separate innovations or a holdover from the 18th century I don't know..

(I actually have trouble pronouncing [ɫ] word finally without forcing it. It occasionally causes difficulty with my students because many of them are used to a Japanese style [rɯ] instead of ɫ, so if I start replacing it with or whatever, they just get confused)

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by R.Rusanov »

The l-vocalizing places in America were originally settled in part by folks from the West Country of Britain/England, which has the same feature. In fact Bristol was originally Bristow, but the presence of l-vocalism was so widespread that it was considered dialectical and hypercorrected. And it's first charter was granted under that name in 1155, meaning a dark l has been around in Englishes of some form or another for almost a millenium.
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Hallow XIII
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Hallow XIII »

How do you say "wall", for instance? [wɒu]?

That just sounds weird to me.
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Travis B. »

Hallow XIII wrote:How do you say "wall", for instance? [wɒu]?

That just sounds weird to me.
[ˈwɒ(ː)o̯], just like how I say mall.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Travis B. »

R.Rusanov wrote:The l-vocalizing places in America were originally settled in part by folks from the West Country of Britain/England, which has the same feature. In fact Bristol was originally Bristow, but the presence of l-vocalism was so widespread that it was considered dialectical and hypercorrected. And it's first charter was granted under that name in 1155, meaning a dark l has been around in Englishes of some form or another for almost a millenium.
I am not sure if l-vocalizing places in the US was necessarily directly conveyed from the UK, and that there was not any internal spread of l-vocalization within the US.

I for one am familiar with l-vocalization both here in southeastern Wisconsin and also in Maryland, where I heard some people who had it as well (with a closer realization than my own, more like [w] for coda /l/).
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Buran
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Buran »

So far, we've been talking about phonology. What about grammar and lexicon (especially closed categories)?

English is merging adverbs into verbs, although I think that's well established by now. Probably one of the first noticeable (for average people) splits between Northern and Southern GA closed category lexicon will be the 2pl pronoun: "you guys" vs. "y'all". What are some other grammar/closed category lexicon things you can think of?

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by clawgrip »

Adjective Recoil wrote:English is merging adverbs into verbs, although I think that's well established by now.
Any examples of this? I can't think of any. Or are you talking about phrasal verbs?

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Travis B. »

clawgrip wrote:
Adjective Recoil wrote:English is merging adverbs into verbs, although I think that's well established by now.
Any examples of this? I can't think of any. Or are you talking about phrasal verbs?
Same thought here. And phrasal verbs are not a sign of this - they are something inherited from Proto-Germanic which show up, in varying forms, in all Germanic languages.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Buran
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Buran »

Travis B. wrote:
clawgrip wrote:
Adjective Recoil wrote:English is merging adverbs into verbs, although I think that's well established by now.
Any examples of this? I can't think of any. Or are you talking about phrasal verbs?
Same thought here. And phrasal verbs are not a sign of this - they are something inherited from Proto-Germanic which show up, in varying forms, in all Germanic languages.
And this is why I should double check before posting. I meant to say adjectives. "I'm doing good" instead of "well". For some reason I can't think of more examples off of the top of my head, though I know that it occurs fairly often in daily conversation. Maybe it's just the loss of an irregular adverb, who knows.

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by R.Rusanov »

I thought you might have meant that, I agree that happens fairly often.

Like in
"He runs quick" or "He runs fast" vs. "He runs quickly"
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Basilius »

Adjective Recoil wrote:"I'm doing good" instead of "well". For some reason I can't think of more examples off of the top of my head, though I know that it occurs fairly often in daily conversation.
Some people just can't speak proper.
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by KathTheDragon »

Basilius wrote:
Adjective Recoil wrote:"I'm doing good" instead of "well". For some reason I can't think of more examples off of the top of my head, though I know that it occurs fairly often in daily conversation.
Some people just can't speak proper.
You mean that they don't know how not to speak incorrect.

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Basilius »

KathAveara wrote:
Basilius wrote:
Adjective Recoil wrote:"I'm doing good" instead of "well". For some reason I can't think of more examples off of the top of my head, though I know that it occurs fairly often in daily conversation.
Some people just can't speak proper.
You mean that they don't know how not to speak incorrect.
Yet, they think they talk English.
Basilius

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Hallow XIII »

Basilius wrote:
KathAveara wrote:
Basilius wrote:
Adjective Recoil wrote:"I'm doing good" instead of "well". For some reason I can't think of more examples off of the top of my head, though I know that it occurs fairly often in daily conversation.
Some people just can't speak proper.
You mean that they don't know how not to speak incorrect.
Yet, they think they talk English.
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KathTheDragon
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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by KathTheDragon »

One of these days, I will become fluent in Old English.

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Re: Constructing a proper descendant of English

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Hví? Hón skal ekki liðsinną þér ~

(in other words I should lay off the Old Norse cookies)
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