Sound Change Quickie Thread

[tezcatlip0ca]

How would Mthaduri borrow something like [aja]? I don't want it to be a'i'a with three consecutive glottal stops, and asha seems too distant.

[Pole, the]

How would Mthaduri borrow something like [aja]? I don't want it to be a'i'a with three consecutive glottal stops, and asha seems too distant.

Allow glides in borrowings?

[sangi39]

Any thoughts on these sound changes?

Code: Select all

i   > ɪ  > ɪ  > e
i:  > i  > i  > i
u   > ʊ  > ʊ  > o
u:  > u  > u  > u
e   > ɛ  > ɛ  > æ
e:  > e  > e  > e
o   > ɔ  > ɔ  > ɑ
o:  > o  > o  > o
a   > æ  > æ  > æ
a:  > ɑ  > ɑ  > ɑ
iw  > ɪw > ɤw > ɤw
i:w > iw > ɯw > ɯw
uw  > ʊw > ʊw > ow
u:w > uw > uw > uw
ew  > ɛw > ʌw > ɑw
e:w > ew > ɤw > ɤw
ow  > ɔw > ɔw > ɑw
o:w > ow > ow > ow
aw  > æw > ɑw > ɑw
a:w > ɑw > ɑw > ɑw
ij  > ɪj > ɪj > ej
i:j > ij > ij > ij
uj  > ʊj > ʏj > øj
u:j > uj > yj > yj
ej  > ɛj > ɛj > æj
e:j > ej > ej > ej
oj  > ɔj > œj > æj
o:j > oj > øj > øj
aj  > æj > æj > æj
a:j > ɑj > æj > æj
wi  > wɪ > wɤ > wɤ > (ˠ)ɤ
wi: > wi > wɯ > wɯ > (ˠ)ɯ
wu  > wʊ > wʊ > wo > (ˠ)o
wu: > wu > wu > wu > (ˠ)u
we  > wɛ > wʌ > wɑ > (ˠ)ɑ
we: > we > wɤ > wɤ > (ˠ)ɤ
wo  > wɔ > wɔ > wɑ > (ˠ)ɑ
wo: > wo > wo > wo > (ˠ)o
wa  > wæ > wɑ > wɑ > (ˠ)ɑ
wa: > wɑ > wɑ > wɑ > (ˠ)ɑ
ji  > jɪ > jɪ > je > ʲe
ji: > ji > ji > ji > ʲi
ju  > jʊ > jʏ > jø > ʲø
ju: > ju > jy > jy > ʲy
je  > jɛ > jɛ > jæ > ʲæ
je: > je > je > je > ʲe
jo  > jɔ > jɛ > jæ > ʲæ
jo: > jo > jø > jø > ʲø
ja  > jæ > jæ > jæ > ʲæ
ja: > jɑ > jæ > jæ > ʲæ

[Hallow XIII]

[ɯw] would probably quickly shift to , or just stay [ɨw]. Otherwise that looks good.

[sangi39]

[ɯw] would probably quickly shift to , or just stay [ɨw]. Otherwise that looks good.

I did have some thoughts regarding monophthongisation of high vowels followed by a glide, but good to know the rest seem ok

How about these:

Code: Select all

Phoneme           i e u o  a  ə  i: e: u: o: a:

Open Stressed   : i e u o  ɑ  ɪ  i: e: u: o: ɑ: > i i u u a i ɑj i: aw u: ɑ:
     Unstressed : e a o ɑ  a  ɐ  e: a: o: ɑ: a: > i a u a a a i: ɑ: u: ɑ: ɑ:
Closed Stressed : ĭ ĕ ŭ ŏ  ɑ̆ ɪ̆ iˑ eˑ uˑ oˑ ɑˑ > ĭ ĭ ŭ ŭ ă ĭ iˑ iˑ uˑ uˑ ɑˑ
     Unstressed : ĕ ă ŏ ɑ̆ ă  ɐ̆ eˑ aˑ oˑ ɑˑ aˑ > ĭ ă ŭ ă ă ă iˑ ɑˑ uˑ ɑˑ ɑˑ

So, basically, stress causes a change in quality (height for non-low vowels, fronting for /a/) while the presence of a coda consonant causes a shortening of the vowel. Then:

a) High long vowels diphthongise in stressed, open syllables.
b) Mid short/long vowels then raise, thus merging with original high vowels in all closed and/or unstressed syllables.
c) Low vowels merge into [ɑ:~ɑˑ~a~ă]

My general thinking is that the sound changes for the vowels in closed syllables, and possibly for low vowels, make the most sense, and potentially the extra-short allophones of short vowels in closed stressed, but after the vowels start to become more pronounced, I'm not sure.

Essentially, I'm looking for a naturalistic way to get from /i i: u u: e e: o o: a a: ə/+/w j/ down to just /i i: u u: a a:/+/w j/

I'm trying to avoid changes that affect neighbouring consonants, but I can only think of using stress and +/- coda consonants but not sure if the above idea's the best way to do it.

[Nortaneous]

Essentially, I'm looking for a naturalistic way to get from /i i: u u: e e: o o: a a: ə/+/w j/ down to just /i i: u u: a a:/+/w j/

I'm trying to avoid changes that affect neighbouring consonants, but I can only think of using stress and +/- coda consonants but not sure if the above idea's the best way to do it.

e o > i u
e: o: > ej ow > aj aw
or i: u: > aj aw, e: o: > i: u:
then ə assimilates to surrounding vowels somehow

[KathTheDragon]

The schwa could strengthen to /a/.

[Hallow XIII]

Given that

/ʌ/ /ɑ/
/ɔ/ /ɒ/
/ɛ/ /æ/

what is the likelihood of a general change /a/ /ə/? Would this also happen in accented (pitch, that is) and long positions or is it more likely to have something like /aː a˥ aː˥/ /ɐː ɐ˥ ɐː˥/?

[tezcatlip0ca]

Given that

/ʌ/ /ɑ/
/ɔ/ /ɒ/
/ɛ/ /æ/

what is the likelihood of a general change /a/ /ə/? Would this also happen in accented (pitch, that is) and long positions or is it more likely to have something like /aː a˥ aː˥/ /ɐː ɐ˥ ɐː˥/?

I think you’re crowding the bottom edge of the vowel space too much. Is this part of a chain shift that will create more vowels in the mid space?
If not, then this would be more likely:
/ʌ/ /ɑ/
/ɔ/ /ɒ/
/a/ /æ/
/ɛ/ /e/

[Hallow XIII]

Actually, that shift happens primarily to uncrowd the top part of the vowel space. You go from

Code: Select all

i y ɯ u
e ø ɤ o
ɛ œ ʌ ɔ
   a

to

Code: Select all

i y ɯ u
e ø ɤ o
   ə
æ ɶ ɑ ɒ

Also note that roundedness isn't really phonemic, per se.

[Whimemsz]

In general, if any part of the vowel system needs "uncrowding" it's going to be the lower part. Eliminating the lower mid series is fine, but it's not very likely that it would happen by overcrowding the open series. (Also, obligatory warning that /ɶ/ is not a phoneme in any known language.) Anyway, aside from /ɶ/, the system you wind up with isn't actually unrealistic, but the process by which you arrive at that system is fairly unusual. I don't want to say it's impossible, though.

[Hallow XIII]

The process is that due to a chain shift by which some diphthongs become front rounded vowels and original front roundeds became back unrounded my language went from backness to rounding harmony. Due to a weird thing with secondary articulations roundedness went on to lose phonemic status, so I'm left with phonemic /i u e o ɛ ɔ a/ plus length, and with the proposed change it becomes /i u e o ə æ ɑ/. I felt that was more natural, seeing that this would also allow an alternation of [eː ɛ oː ɔ] without weird mergers.

EDIT: also ɶ̝, as in, near-open. I could also have said œ̞, but the other way is more distinctive.

[Whimemsz]

Okay, I totally missed the part where rounding was harmonic and not strictly phonemic. Yeah, your change is probably fine.

[Pogostick Man]

Quick aside—why is it said that /œ/ is not phonemic in any known language? Wikipedia lists it as a phoneme in French at least.

[Matrix]

Quick aside—why is it said that /œ/ is not phonemic in any known language? Wikipedia lists it as a phoneme in French at least.

œ ≠ ɶ

[WeepingElf]

œ ≠ ɶ

What do you mean by that? Surely, [ɶ] is a different sound than [œ]. It is more open. But when it comes to phonemes, it depends on the language. How many languages are there where these sounds are different phonemes?

[Pole, the]

œ ≠ ɶ

What do you mean by that? Surely, [ɶ] is a different sound than [œ]. It is more open. But when it comes to phonemes, it depends on the language. How many languages are there where these sounds are different phonemes?

The point is: /ɶ/ isn't likely to appear in a language, in contrast to /œ/.

[WeepingElf]

œ ≠ ɶ

What do you mean by that? Surely, [ɶ] is a different sound than [œ]. It is more open. But when it comes to phonemes, it depends on the language. How many languages are there where these sounds are different phonemes?

The point is: /ɶ/ isn't likely to appear in a language, in contrast to /œ/.

Yes. /ɶ/ is very rare, while /œ/ is much more common.

[Click]

Okay, I totally missed the part where rounding was harmonic and not strictly phonemic. Yeah, your change is probably fine.

You are alive

[Pogostick Man]

œ ≠ ɶ

What do you mean by that? Surely, [ɶ] is a different sound than [œ]. It is more open. But when it comes to phonemes, it depends on the language. How many languages are there where these sounds are different phonemes?

The point is: /ɶ/ isn't likely to appear in a language, in contrast to /œ/.

Yes. /ɶ/ is very rare, while /œ/ is much more common.

I can't tell if this is some joke or if my Unicode isn't working right because all I can see is <œ>…

[Ser]

You just need better glasses. Or prove it with a screenshot.

ɶ œ

One has a small capital <E> at the right, with three horizontal lines poking out of the <o>. The other one has a lower-case <e> instead.

[Pazmivaniye]

Some people should look at a vowel chart. Also the IPA is kind of retarded sometimes.

[Hallow XIII]

I'm currently reading this thread on my iPhone and I can affirm that the two glyphs display almost exactly alike, with what is supposed to be small caps differing only by the length of the e's tail. I don't know what he's using but I reckon it's something similar.

[Whimemsz]

Okay, I totally missed the part where rounding was harmonic and not strictly phonemic. Yeah, your change is probably fine.

You are alive :)

bows

[Pogostick Man]

I'm currently reading this thread on my iPhone and I can affirm that the two glyphs display almost exactly alike, with what is supposed to be small caps differing only by the length of the e's tail. I don't know what he's using but I reckon it's something similar.

Firefox on a MacBook Pro. They both show up lowercase, even when Serafin blew up the font size.

EDIT: Added a screenshot.

DOUBLE EDIT: When in the Code box, the capital form seems to correctly display.