Sound Change Quickie Thread

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Pogostick Man
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Pogostick Man »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?
kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Click »

Linguifex wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?
kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.
/t`/ is a retroflex stop – /ʈ/ in IPA. :wink:

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

Clıck wrote:
Linguifex wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?
kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.
/t`/ is a retroflex stop – /ʈ/ in IPA. :wink:
Yeah, normally I would be typing in IPA, but all I have with me right now is a tablet.


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?
I see no problem with that. I have seen weirder things. What you ask for is essentially two consonants meeting in the middle.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Click »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Clıck wrote:
Linguifex wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?
kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.
/t`/ is a retroflex stop – /ʈ/ in IPA. :wink:
Yeah, normally I would be typing in IPA, but all I have with me right now is a tablet.
I was telling that to Linguifex.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

And as we are at such things as clusters and changing POAs:

Do you think /c/ > /tk/ makes sense?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Click »

WeepingElf wrote:And as we are at such things as clusters and changing POAs:

Do you think /c/ > /tk/ makes sense?
It looks a bit far-fetched at first glance, but possible.

Is pʰ tʰ kʰ → ɸ θ x → w j h / C_ plausible?

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

WeepingElf wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?
I see no problem with that. I have seen weirder things. What you ask for is essentially two consonants meeting in the middle.
I'd think "meeting in the middle" would give you something more like /c/. Actually, if this is plausible, it's probably more like the /k/ retracts the /t/ to /ʈ/.
Clıck wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:And as we are at such things as clusters and changing POAs:

Do you think /c/ > /tk/ makes sense?
It looks a bit far-fetched at first glance, but possible.

Is pʰ tʰ kʰ → ɸ θ x → w j h / C_ plausible?
In what environment do you want /c/ > /tk/? (You also might consider expanding that to something like /c/ > /kʲ/ > /kt/ > /tk/)
Hmm... I'd think perhaps to add a /ɸ/ > /β/ and /θ/ > /ð/ or something first... but otherwise I don't see why not.


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:In what environment do you want /c/ > /tk/?
In all environments. The idea is that a whole series of palatal obstruents disappears by becoming alveolar/velar clusters, possibly under the influence of an adstratum language that has such clusters.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Cedh »

Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?

Another option might be c > tʃ > tx > tk, with the ʃ > x change stolen from Spanish.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

cedh audmanh wrote:Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?

Another option might be c > tʃ > tx > tk, with the ʃ > x change stolen from Spanish.
Ooh, I like that better... less awkward than a regular metathesis. Do you have any non-intervocalic C, though? Because that might lead to awkward consonant clusters.


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

Greek had pj > pt so kj > kt isn't that far off. Most IE langs had tk > kt so reversing that seems plausible. But the one that goes through tx seems less weird.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by 8Deer »

cedh audmanh wrote:Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?
I know pj > pt happened in Greek. EDIT: Scooped by Nort.

What's something interesting that can happen to ie̯ uo̯? I've recently been obsessed with them but want to lose them one language.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

8Deer wrote:
cedh audmanh wrote:Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?
I know pj > pt happened in Greek. EDIT: Scooped by Nort.

What's something interesting that can happen to ie̯ uo̯? I've recently been obsessed with them but want to lose them one language.
Laryngeals! /ie̯/ > /ia̯/ > /iʕ/ (or your favourite laryngeal), /uo̯/ > /ua̯/ > /uʕ/. Okay, so it's not very exciting, but it's more exciting than /ie̯/ > /je/.


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by R.Rusanov »

pretty sure pj went to ps in greek?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

Dammit I went to look up the etymology of a word with pt- but the first one I thought of was 'ptarmigan'.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Hallow XIII »

ObsequiousNewt wrote:Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?
kt > tˠ > tˤ > ʈ

NE: this is what I did in one of my earlier conlangs, with the reasoning being that tˤ was [+Coronal][+RTR] which caused it to shift to apical postalveolar, which I think at the time people seemed to agree was at least a conceivable change. But I wouldn't take my word on it.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Tropylium »

This is not a question, I'd just like to report a snazzy soundlaw I just found out about: Avestan has rhinoglottophilia.
*h(j) → ŋh / a_a
*hw → ŋʷh / a_a
*h → ŋ / a_ra
Also yes, for some reason this only happens between two /a/'s.

---

Re troflexes: velarization is a very plausible explanation. Consider RUKI, i.e. *s → *ʂ / {r u k i}_. IIRC a change alveolar → retroflex / u_ is also known from various Australian languages.

---

For ie̯ uo̯, some attested options:
1) → iɛ uɔ → ia ua (found in SW Finnish dialects)
2a) → iː.e uː.o (in Livonian)
2b) → je wo (also in Livonian)
3) → ʲeː ʷoː (in Southern Sami, well the 1st anyway)
4) → iɤ uɤ (in Skolt Sami)
5a) → iː uː (in Kildin Sami)
5b) → iː ɨː (in Ter Sami, probably via a Skolt-like intermediate)
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by jmcd »

WeepingElf wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:In what environment do you want /c/ > /tk/?
In all environments. The idea is that a whole series of palatal obstruents disappears by becoming alveolar/velar clusters, possibly under the influence of an adstratum language that has such clusters.
Cedh's proposal does indeed seem the most reasonable so far but I add another nonetheless:
c>kt/_r and then expanding into similar environments (like r_ and _s) until the change is present in all environments

Also, paradigm levelling, hypercorrection and spelling pronunciation.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Cedh »

8Deer wrote:
cedh audmanh wrote:Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?
I know pj > pt happened in Greek. EDIT: Scooped by Nort.
Ah yes, that's what I was thinking of.
What's something interesting that can happen to ie̯ uo̯? I've recently been obsessed with them but want to lose them one language.
Front-back switch via dissimilation, based on the o > we change that happened in stressed syllables in Spanish:
ie̯ uo̯ > iə uə > jo we (> o e)

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Tiamat »

Are these possible changes, or well realistic:

ikwi > yky
uCju > yCy

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by R.Rusanov »

Yeah, but I wouldn't expect both of them at one time. The first - more likely in a language with two many i's, the second - in one with too many u's.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Tiamat »

I should specify that the first of the two happens first and that surrounding languages have front rounded vowels.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Basilius »

Vortex wrote:Are these possible changes, or well realistic:

ikwi > yky
uCju > yCy
Plausible. No reservations. Just watch you phoneme frequencies.
Basilius

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by ObsequiousNewt »

This was an old attempt to derive something from PIE, and probably not at all in accordance with the laws of sound change, but what do you think about /p t ḱ k kʷ/ > /kʷ ḱ k h~ʔ k/ when next to /h₂/? (or even with the velars fricativized.)


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.

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