zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:45 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2832 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 ... 114  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:14 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:21 pm
Posts: 894
Location: Ohio
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?

kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.

_________________
(Avatar via Happy Wheels Wiki)
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:17 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:53 am
Posts: 620
Linguifex wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?

kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.

/t`/ is a retroflex stop – /ʈ/ in IPA. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:26 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 434
Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
Clıck wrote:
Linguifex wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?

kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.

/t`/ is a retroflex stop – /ʈ/ in IPA. :wink:

Yeah, normally I would be typing in IPA, but all I have with me right now is a tablet.

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:46 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1630
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?


I see no problem with that. I have seen weirder things. What you ask for is essentially two consonants meeting in the middle.

_________________
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:47 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:53 am
Posts: 620
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Clıck wrote:
Linguifex wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?

kt > ʔt > tʼ

Don't see why not.

/t`/ is a retroflex stop – /ʈ/ in IPA. :wink:

Yeah, normally I would be typing in IPA, but all I have with me right now is a tablet.

I was telling that to Linguifex.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:48 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1630
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
And as we are at such things as clusters and changing POAs:

Do you think /c/ > /tk/ makes sense?

_________________
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:54 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:53 am
Posts: 620
WeepingElf wrote:
And as we are at such things as clusters and changing POAs:

Do you think /c/ > /tk/ makes sense?

It looks a bit far-fetched at first glance, but possible.

Is pʰ tʰ kʰ → ɸ θ x → w j h / C_ plausible?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:04 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 434
Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
WeepingElf wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?


I see no problem with that. I have seen weirder things. What you ask for is essentially two consonants meeting in the middle.

I'd think "meeting in the middle" would give you something more like /c/. Actually, if this is plausible, it's probably more like the /k/ retracts the /t/ to /ʈ/.
Clıck wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
And as we are at such things as clusters and changing POAs:

Do you think /c/ > /tk/ makes sense?

It looks a bit far-fetched at first glance, but possible.

Is pʰ tʰ kʰ → ɸ θ x → w j h / C_ plausible?

In what environment do you want /c/ > /tk/? (You also might consider expanding that to something like /c/ > /kʲ/ > /kt/ > /tk/)
Hmm... I'd think perhaps to add a /ɸ/ > /β/ and /θ/ > /ð/ or something first... but otherwise I don't see why not.

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:11 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1630
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
In what environment do you want /c/ > /tk/?


In all environments. The idea is that a whole series of palatal obstruents disappears by becoming alveolar/velar clusters, possibly under the influence of an adstratum language that has such clusters.

_________________
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:03 pm 
Sanno
Sanno

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:30 am
Posts: 939
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?

Another option might be c > tʃ > tx > tk, with the ʃ > x change stolen from Spanish.

_________________
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:51 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 434
Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
cedh audmanh wrote:
Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?

Another option might be c > tʃ > tx > tk, with the ʃ > x change stolen from Spanish.

Ooh, I like that better... less awkward than a regular metathesis. Do you have any non-intervocalic C, though? Because that might lead to awkward consonant clusters.

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:28 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Greek had pj > pt so kj > kt isn't that far off. Most IE langs had tk > kt so reversing that seems plausible. But the one that goes through tx seems less weird.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:31 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 122
cedh audmanh wrote:
Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?

I know pj > pt happened in Greek. EDIT: Scooped by Nort.

What's something interesting that can happen to ie̯ uo̯? I've recently been obsessed with them but want to lose them one language.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:47 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 434
Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
8Deer wrote:
cedh audmanh wrote:
Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?

I know pj > pt happened in Greek. EDIT: Scooped by Nort.

What's something interesting that can happen to ie̯ uo̯? I've recently been obsessed with them but want to lose them one language.

Laryngeals! /ie̯/ > /ia̯/ > /iʕ/ (or your favourite laryngeal), /uo̯/ > /ua̯/ > /uʕ/. Okay, so it's not very exciting, but it's more exciting than /ie̯/ > /je/.

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:32 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:59 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Novo-je Orĭlovo
pretty sure pj went to ps in greek?

_________________
Slava, čĭstŭ, hrabrostĭ!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:51 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Dammit I went to look up the etymology of a word with pt- but the first one I thought of was 'ptarmigan'.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:43 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 847
Location: Under Heaven
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
Is /kt/ > /t`/ plausible?


kt > tˠ > tˤ > ʈ

NE: this is what I did in one of my earlier conlangs, with the reasoning being that tˤ was [+Coronal][+RTR] which caused it to shift to apical postalveolar, which I think at the time people seemed to agree was at least a conceivable change. But I wouldn't take my word on it.

_________________
陳第 wrote:
蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。

R.Rusanov wrote:
seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg

Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:37 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea
This is not a question, I'd just like to report a snazzy soundlaw I just found out about: Avestan has rhinoglottophilia.
*h(j) → ŋh / a_a
*hw → ŋʷh / a_a
*h → ŋ / a_ra
Also yes, for some reason this only happens between two /a/'s.

---

Re troflexes: velarization is a very plausible explanation. Consider RUKI, i.e. *s → *ʂ / {r u k i}_. IIRC a change alveolar → retroflex / u_ is also known from various Australian languages.

---

For ie̯ uo̯, some attested options:
1) → iɛ uɔ → ia ua (found in SW Finnish dialects)
2a) → iː.e uː.o (in Livonian)
2b) → je wo (also in Livonian)
3) → ʲeː ʷoː (in Southern Sami, well the 1st anyway)
4) → iɤ uɤ (in Skolt Sami)
5a) → iː uː (in Kildin Sami)
5b) → iː ɨː (in Ter Sami, probably via a Skolt-like intermediate)

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:46 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Posts: 1035
Location: Réunion
WeepingElf wrote:
ObsequiousNewt wrote:
In what environment do you want /c/ > /tk/?


In all environments. The idea is that a whole series of palatal obstruents disappears by becoming alveolar/velar clusters, possibly under the influence of an adstratum language that has such clusters.
Cedh's proposal does indeed seem the most reasonable so far but I add another nonetheless:
c>kt/_r and then expanding into similar environments (like r_ and _s) until the change is present in all environments

Also, paradigm levelling, hypercorrection and spelling pronunciation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:46 am 
Sanno
Sanno

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:30 am
Posts: 939
Location: Tübingen, Germany
8Deer wrote:
cedh audmanh wrote:
Not sure about "all environments", but at least in #_V and V_V positions c > kʲ > kt > tk seems possible, like ON mentioned above. Didn't something similar (kj > kt IIRC) happen somewhere in IE?

I know pj > pt happened in Greek. EDIT: Scooped by Nort.

Ah yes, that's what I was thinking of.

Quote:
What's something interesting that can happen to ie̯ uo̯? I've recently been obsessed with them but want to lose them one language.

Front-back switch via dissimilation, based on the o > we change that happened in stressed syllables in Spanish:
ie̯ uo̯ > iə uə > jo we (> o e)

_________________
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:23 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Are these possible changes, or well realistic:

ikwi > yky
uCju > yCy

_________________
Proto-Karasuk
Unthahian

FKA Vortex


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:36 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:59 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Novo-je Orĭlovo
Yeah, but I wouldn't expect both of them at one time. The first - more likely in a language with two many i's, the second - in one with too many u's.

_________________
Slava, čĭstŭ, hrabrostĭ!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:12 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Brooklyn, NY
I should specify that the first of the two happens first and that surrounding languages have front rounded vowels.

_________________
Proto-Karasuk
Unthahian

FKA Vortex


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:57 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:43 am
Posts: 398
Location: Moscow, Russia
Vortex wrote:
Are these possible changes, or well realistic:

ikwi > yky
uCju > yCy

Plausible. No reservations. Just watch you phoneme frequencies.

_________________
Basilius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:59 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
Posts: 434
Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
This was an old attempt to derive something from PIE, and probably not at all in accordance with the laws of sound change, but what do you think about /p t ḱ k kʷ/ > /kʷ ḱ k h~ʔ k/ when next to /h₂/? (or even with the velars fricativized.)

_________________


Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2832 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 ... 114  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group