English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
User avatar
KathTheDragon
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2139
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
Location: Brittania

English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by KathTheDragon »

So, I was chatting with someone I know, and our conversation ended up with him claiming that English is a fusion of Norman French and Late Anglic. The example of why he is right I asked him to give was to do with word order - which I promptly demonstrated to be wrong by citing Old English word order. He then went on to claim that 'most linguists' would agree with him. So, naturally, you being linguists (of some sort), what are your opinions on the matter?

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Travis B. »

The obvious answer is that this is a load of shit. If one looks at Middle English, well after the Norman Conquest, it looks like yet another Germanic language, even with its cases and genders being relatively worn-down by that point, with its set of Romance loans being really no greater than those in most other Germanic languages by the present. It must be pointed out that much of the loans from Romance into English had not even happened yet, occurring only later in the Early Modern English period.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

zompist
Boardlord
Boardlord
Posts: 3368
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Location: In the den
Contact:

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by zompist »

He's wrong. Extensive borrowings don't change language family; for that matter, when you get to inflections and grammatical words (prepositions, pronouns, numbers, conjunctions, particles) it's pretty damn Germanic.

English isn't even much of an outlier if you look at other coastal Germanic languages. If you're interested, track down Thomason & Kaufman's Language Contact, Creolization, and Genetic Linguistics are read the extended case study on English.

gmalivuk
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:24 am

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by gmalivuk »

The Google Books preview seems to include the Anglo-Norman part of that case study.

User avatar
Radius Solis
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Si'ahl
Contact:

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Radius Solis »

"Most linguists" would tell him to quit making shit up and claiming they'd agree.

You're welcome to tell him we have borrowed lots and lots of words from French, since we have.

User avatar
KathTheDragon
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2139
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
Location: Brittania

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by KathTheDragon »

I did acknowledge that.

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Salmoneus »

He's right, and everyone else is over-reacting.

He didn't (as quoted, at least) say that English was a creole, or a pidgin, or that English had stopped being a Germanic language because of the French contact, or that Anglic and French were equally responsible for English. He'd be unlikely to say any of those things, because let's be honest that's all pretty meaningless to a layman anyway.

But what he (is quoted as having) said is true: English is the result of a fusion of Norman French and 'Late Anglic' (if that means ' Old English'). If nothing else, a huge part of the vocabulary is from Norman French, or via Norman French. [And note, 'Norman French' doesn't just mean the Conquest. Anglo-Norman French continued to be a highly influential superstrate all the way through Middle English]
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

Shm Jay
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 823
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:29 pm

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Shm Jay »

No, if one won't use the standard and agreed-upon terminology one doesn't deserve credit even if the idea is the same when translated into standard terminology. Points are not only deducted, but altogether nullified for being a special snowflake. So this makes him wrong. What on earth is "Late Anglic" supposed to be, anyway? Is it something like that Oro/Vulvo/Phallo/Ano-Romance that that guy used to go on about here?

User avatar
ol bofosh
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:30 pm
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by ol bofosh »

I get a feeling that French and Latin have hugely interfered with English, which isn't the same as "fusión" I think (isn't there slightly more a case for a fusion between OE and ON?). Before understanding Spanish I could pick out more written words from French or Spanish than German, Dutch or other. This could lead to the misconception that we're speaking a "fusión" language.
It was about time I changed this.

zompist
Boardlord
Boardlord
Posts: 3368
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Location: In the den
Contact:

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by zompist »

If the dude had said "a huge part of the vocabulary is from French", he'd be right. But he didn't, and he went on to claim the approval of "linguists". He was bullshitting and KathAveara was right to be suspicious.

User avatar
ol bofosh
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:30 pm
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by ol bofosh »

Right, bullshit. Which isn't French.
It was about time I changed this.

User avatar
Legion
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 522
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:56 pm

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Legion »

English has no more French and Latin vocabulary than many other European languages did until they underwent massive movements of renativisation. German only looks "so much more germanic" than English because they've consciously replaced numerous greco-latin compounds with germanic calques.

Borrowing massively from French and Latin was not something unique to English, it was the normal thing to do during the Renaissance and Enlightenment. And indeed, the anglo-norman base is *not* the majority of borrowed French words into English.

User avatar
KathTheDragon
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2139
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
Location: Brittania

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by KathTheDragon »

He did claim that we borrowed half our grammar from Old French as well.

User avatar
Legion
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 522
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:56 pm

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Legion »

There aren't much similarities between French and English grammar that cannot be attributed either to their common IE origin or more locally to them being SAE languages (in the later cases, those similarities will be found in other neighbouring languages like German or Spanish).

The only specific similarity I can think of is that both French and English both had V2 word order then subsequently lost it, resulting in a number of similar idiosyncracies —but Old French being V2 in the first place is a case of Germanic influence on French rather than the opposite.

From a phonological and grammatical point of view, there is much more Germanic influence on French than there is Romance influence on English.

User avatar
Basilius
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:43 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Basilius »

KathAveara wrote:He did claim that we borrowed half our grammar from Old French as well.
The exact opposite statement makes more sense, for me. Like, there's no single bit in English grammar that is unquestionably due to specifically French influence. The biggest impact on grammar was actually from (1) Scandinavian and (2) Latin.

Also, I second recommending Thomason & Kaufman.
Basilius

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Ser »

Basilius wrote:
KathAveara wrote:He did claim that we borrowed half our grammar from Old French as well.
The exact opposite statement makes more sense, for me. Like, there's no single bit in English grammar that is unquestionably due to specifically French influence. The biggest impact on grammar was actually from (1) Scandinavian and (2) Latin.
I think the loss of noun phrase discontinuity for split coordination at the end of a sentence is often attributed to French influence though. Split coordination as in:
  • Se de god lufad & men, he hylt ealle godes bec. (Alaric's Homilies, II.300.26)
    'Whoever loves God and men remains faithful to the book of everything good.'
    (Literally, "He that God loves and men, he remains faithful to the book of all
    good

User avatar
Rhetorica
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:33 pm

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Rhetorica »

ol bofosh wrote:Right, bullshit. Which isn't French.
No, in French you say foutaise or connerie, although merde de vachê is gaining some traction (unlike merde de taureau, which remains the sole purview of fancy-talkin' Americans.)

hwhatting
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2315
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:49 am
Location: Bonn, Germany

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by hwhatting »

Rhetorica wrote:merde de vachê is
Merde de quoi?

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Hallow XIII »

mais ce circonflex il fout quoi là
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Rhetorica
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:33 pm

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Rhetorica »

hwhatting wrote:
Rhetorica wrote:merde de vachê is
Merde de quoi?
I could've sworn there was a circumflex there... sigh. I guess my third-grade French teacher was Belgian or something.

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Hallow XIII »

Protip: Accents don't go on silent vowels.
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Drydic
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
Contact:

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Drydic »

Inversion wrote:Protip: Accents don't go on silent vowels.
Challenge accepted.
Image Image
Common Zein Scratchpad & other Stuffs! OMG AN ACTUAL CONPOST WTFBBQ

Formerly known as Drydic.

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Ser »

Inversion wrote:Protip: Accents don't go on silent vowels.
Wrong: the feminine of <aigu> /Egy/ is <aiguë> /Egy/.

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Hallow XIII »

The diaeresis is a polygraph disambiguator, not an accent, and its purpose is to break up the trigraph <gue> /ɡ(ə)/ - in other words, ensuring that the /y/ is not read as silent.

NE: also, for what it's worth, "La réforme orthographique de 1990 recommande de placer le tréma sur le u des formes au féminin pour préciser qu’il se prononce. → voir aigüe et aigües"

not my fault if the French can't keep up with their own rules
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: English as Fusion of French and Anglic

Post by Ser »

Inversion wrote:The diaeresis is a polygraph disambiguator, not an accent,
That's a distinction I can't be arsed to make, I'm afraid. What the flying fuck is a polygraph disambiguator anyway? A machine that helps correct the results of a lie detector?
NE: also, for what it's worth, "La réforme orthographique de 1990 recommande de placer le tréma sur le u des formes au féminin pour préciser qu’il se prononce. → voir aigüe et aigües"

not my fault if the French can't keep up with their own rules
No, it's that the French Academy has long lost any authority, even on matters of spelling (people follow the Petit Larousse anyway).

Post Reply