Romanization challenge thread

[Grunnen]

Africanish

Consonants:
ŋ͡m m n ŋ <gm m n g>
k͡pʰ k͡p pʰ p tʰ t t͡sʰ t͡s kʰ k <kp kb p b t d c z q k>
xʷ s x l w <hw s h l w>

Vowels:
a e i o u <a e i o u>

Phonotactics:
(nasal)(C)V

Example

k͡paxa toneŋa pasula t͡sʰowa. ntisi ŋke kʰawalo mena xa xʷolamane. tʰinu sama se t͡sʰowa sintisiwa.
KBaha tonega pasula cowa. ntisi gke qawalo mena ha hwolamane. Tinu sama se cowa sintisiwa.

Yes, the digraphs <kb>, <kp> and <hw> are in all caps if capitalised.

Wow, I would almost believe myself I took this orthography straight from Basilius. I suppose it's an economic solution... I mean the orthography.

[Basilius]

<n g>
<kb q k>

Yes, that was witty

[Grunnen]

<n g>
<kb q k>

Yes, that was witty

Thanks, I was surprised it would fit that well. I guess the <c z> is the Chinese route, and thus the obvious solution, isn't it?

[Grunnen]

Just pretend you have no idea what this is.

I don't pretend, I just have no idea.

It's the collection of abstractions of sounds I use in daily speech. At least when I'm not abroad.

[ęzo]

Grunnen's challenge:

/p b t d k/ <p b t d k>
/f v s z χ h/ <f v s z x h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n g>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <w l j r>
/i y u/ <i y u>
/ɪ ʏ/ <ì ỳ>
/e ø o/ <e ø o>
/ɛ ɔ/ <è ò>
/a ɑ/ <a à>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ai øy àu>
/iʋ uʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <iw uw ew uj oj òj aj àj>

An example sentence would be helpful.

[finlay]

since when does dutch have [R]?

[ObsequiousNewt]

If you have any strong feelings towards the Greek alphabet, please avert your eyes.

/p b t d k/ <π β τ δ κ>
/f v s z χ h/ <φ ψ σ ζ χ θ
/m n ŋ/ <μ ν γ>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <ῠ λ ῐ ρ>
/i y u/ <ῑ ῡ ου>
/ɪ ʏ/ <ι υ>
/e ø o/ <η εο ω>
/ɛ ɔ/ <ε ο>
/a ɑ/ <ᾰ ᾱ>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ει εου αυ>
/iʋ uʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <ιυ υυ ηυ υι ῳ οι ᾳ αι>

[Grunnen]

Grunnen's challenge:

/p b t d k/ <p b t d k>
/f v s z χ h/ <f v s z x h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n g>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <w l j r>
/i y u/ <i y u>
/ɪ ʏ/ <ì ỳ>
/e ø o/ <e ø o>
/ɛ ɔ/ <è ò>
/a ɑ/ <a à>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ai øy àu>
/iʋ uʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <iw uw ew uj oj òj aj àj>

An example sentence would be helpful.

I see I even made two mistakes: forgot schwa and wrote uʋ instead of yʋ.

Example sentence:

/də noʁdəʋɪnd ɛn də zɔn ʋaʁə əʁovəʁ an ət ʁedətʋɪstə ʋi də stɛʁkstə wɑs vɑn hʏn bæidə | jœyst ɔp dɑt momɛnt kʋɑm əʁ ən ʁæizəχəʁ an di χəhʏld wɑs ɪn ən ʋɑʁmə mɑntəl | zə kʋamə ovəʁen dɑt dəχenə di əʁ ət eʁst ɪn zɑu slaχə də ʁæizəχəʁ zæin mɑntəl tə dun œyttʁɛkə də stɛʁkstə zɑu ʋɔʁdə χəɑχt/

[ęzo]

Grunnen's challenge, revised:

/p b t d k/ <p b t d k>
/f v s z χ h/ <f v s z x h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n g>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <w l j r>
/i y u/ <i y u>
/ɪ ʏ/ <ì ỳ>
/e ø o/ <é ø o>
/ɛ ə ɔ/ <è e ò>
/a ɑ/ <a à>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ai øy àu>
/iʋ yʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <iw yw ew uj oj òj aj àj>

/də noʁdəʋɪnd ɛn də zɔn ʋaʁə əʁovəʁ an ət ʁedətʋɪstə ʋi də stɛʁkstə wɑs vɑn hʏn bæidə | jœyst ɔp dɑt momɛnt kʋɑm əʁ ən ʁæizəχəʁ an di χəhʏld wɑs ɪn ən ʋɑʁmə mɑntəl | zə kʋamə ovəʁen dɑt dəχenə di əʁ ət eʁst ɪn zɑu slaχə də ʁæizəχəʁ zæin mɑntəl tə dun œyttʁɛkə də stɛʁkstə zɑu ʋɔʁdə χəɑχt/

<De nordewind èn de zòn ware erover an et rédetwìste wi de stèrkste wàs vàn hỳn baide. Jøyst òp dàt momènt kwàm er en raizexer an di xehỳld wàs ìn en warme màntel. Ze kwame overén dàt dexéne di er et érst ìn zàu slaxe de raizexer zain màntel te dun øyttrèke de stèrkste zàu wòrde xeàxt.>

Or:

/p b t d k/ <p b t d k>
/f v s z χ h/ <f v s z c h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n g>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <w l j r>
/i y u/ <ie iy u>
/ɪ ʏ/ <i y>
/e ø o/ <ee eo ou>
/ɛ ə ɔ/ <ea e o>
/a ɑ/ <ae a>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ai eu au>
/iʋ yʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <iw yw ew uj ouj oj aej aj>

<De nourdewind ean de zon waere erouver aen et reedetwiste wie de stearkste was van hyn baide. Jeust op dat moumeant kwam er en raizecer aen die cehyld was in en warme mantel. Ze kwaeme ouvereen dat deceene die er et eerst in zau slaece de raizecer zain mantel te dun euttreake de stearkste zau worde ceact.>

[sangi39]

Dutch

/p b t d k/ <p b t d k>
/f v s z χ h/ <f v s z g h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <w l j r>
/i y u/ <ie ü uo>
/ɪ ʏ/ <i u>
/e ø o/ <ee ö oo>
/ɛ ə ɔ/ <ä e o>
/a ɑ/ <a aa>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ai ou au>
/iʋ yʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <iw uw ew uj ooj oj aj aaj>

/də noʁdəʋɪnd ɛn də zɔn ʋaʁə əʁovəʁ an ət ʁedətʋɪstə ʋi də stɛʁkstə wɑs vɑn hʏn bæidə | jœyst ɔp dɑt momɛnt kʋɑm əʁ ən ʁæizəχəʁ an di χəhʏld wɑs ɪn ən ʋɑʁmə mɑntəl | zə kʋamə ovəʁen dɑt dəχenə di əʁ ət eʁst ɪn zɑu slaχə də ʁæizəχəʁ zæin mɑntəl tə dun œyttʁɛkə də stɛʁkstə zɑu ʋɔʁdə χəɑχt/

De noordewind än de zon ware eroover an et reedetwiste wie de stärkste waas vaan hun baide. Joust op daat moomänt kwaam er en raizeger an die gehuld waas in en waarme maantel. Ze kwaame oovereen daat degeene die er et eerst in zau slage de raizeger zain maantel te duon outträke de stärkste zau worde geaagt.

[finlay]

A valiant effort, but you got a and aa back-to-front, so it looks really strange...

[sangi39]

A valiant effort, but you got a and aa back-to-front, so it looks really strange...

De noordewind än de zon waare eroover aan et reedetwiste wie de stärkste was van hun baide. Joust op dat moomänt kwam er en raizeger aan die gehuld was in en warme mantel. Ze kwame oovereen dat degeene die er et eerst in zau slaage de raizeger zain mantel te duon outträke de stärkste zau worde geagt.

It certainly cuts down on the number of <aa>s that appear in the sample

[Haplogy]

/m̥ m n̥ n ɲ̥ ɲ ŋ̥ ŋ ŋʷ̥ ŋʷ/ <mh m nh n ńh ń ngh ng nghu/nghw ngu/ngw>
/ᵐb ᵐɓ ⁿd ⁿɗ ⁿd͡ʑ ⁿɗ̱ʲ ᵑg ᵑgʷ/ <mb 'm nd 'n ńj 'ń ngg nggu/nggw>
/p b ɓ t d ɗ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɗ̱ʲ k g kʷ gʷ ʔ/ <p b 'b t d 'd c j 'j k g ku/kw gu/gw '>
/f s ɕ x xʷ/ <f s ś h hu/hw>
/ʋ ɹ j w/ <v r y w>
/i u e o æ a/ <i u e ó a o>

Vevti mbipa ii kue acu u'jungh nhó ngheńcuy ir hóńj hus nghueór gev kuińhe yi uhe iso unggihw te'e yimhpa acu ó nghiknhi'j soa uhe ketnge e eńa iyu tinhuw śewi'ń ójev mi 'munggw ii far śus.
/ʋeʋti ᵐbipæ ii kʷe æt͡ɕu uɗ̱ʲuŋ̥ n̥o ŋ̥eɲ̥t͡ɕuj iɹ xoⁿd͡ʑ xus ŋʷ̥eoɹ geʋ kʷiɲ̥e ji uxe isa uᵑgixʷ teʔe jim̥pæ æt͡ɕu o ŋ̥ikn̥iɗ̱ʲ saæ uxe ketŋe e eɲæ ⁿɗan̥ti iju tin̥uw ɕewiⁿɗ̱ʲ od͡ʑeʋ mi ᵐɓuᵑgʷ ii faɹ ɕus/

[Haplogy]

since when does dutch have [R]?

[r~ɾ~ɹ~ɻ~ʀ~ʁ] are all used.

[Grunnen]

since when does dutch have [R]?

[r~ɾ~ɹ~ɻ~ʀ~ʁ] are all used.

http://dare.ubn.kun.nl/bitstream/2066/1 ... 142583.pdf lists twelve different realisations of /r/ in standard Dutch. I think I read a paper recently in which they identified a few more. I simply picked something voiced and uvular, cause in my speach, anything voiced and uvular is r.

[Nortaneous]

Dutch

/p b t d k/ <p b t d k>
/f v s z χ h/ <f v s z g h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <w l j r>
/i y u/ <i~ie ü~üü u~uu>
/ɪ ʏ/ <i u>
/e ø o/ <e~ee ö~öö o~oo>
/ɛ ə ɔ/ <e e o>
/a ɑ/ <a a~aa>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ei ou au>
/iʋ yʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <iu uw eu ui ooi oi äi ai>

/də noʁdəʋɪnd ɛn də zɔn ʋaʁə əʁovəʁ an ət ʁedətʋɪstə ʋi də stɛʁkstə wɑs vɑn hʏn bæidə | jœyst ɔp dɑt momɛnt kʋɑm əʁ ən ʁæizəχəʁ an di χəhʏld wɑs ɪn ən ʋɑʁmə mɑntəl | zə kʋamə ovəʁen dɑt dəχenə di əʁ ət eʁst ɪn zɑu slaχə də ʁæizəχəʁ zæin mɑntəl tə dun œyttʁɛkə də stɛʁkstə zɑu ʋɔʁdə χəɑχt/
De noordewind en de zonn varre erover an et redetwiste wi de sterkste was van hün beide. Joust op dat moment quam er en reizeger an di gehüld was in en waarme maantel. Ze quamme overen dat dagene di er et eerst in zau slagge de reizeger zein maantel te dun outtrekke de sterkste zau vorde geaagt.

[finlay]

Dutch as Welsh
/p b t d k/ <p b t d c>
/f v s z χ h/ <ff f s/ss s ch h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/ʋ l j ʁ/ <w l i r>
/i y u/ <î û ŵ>
/ɪ ʏ/ <i u>
/e ø o/ <ê w ô>
/ɛ ə ɔ/ <e y o>
/a ɑ/ <â a>
/æi œy ɑu/ <ei uw aw>
/iʋ yʋ eʋ uj oj ɔj aj ɑj/ <iw yw ew ui ôi oi âi ai>

/də noʁdəʋɪnd ɛn də zɔn ʋaʁə əʁovəʁ an ət ʁedətʋɪstə ʋi də stɛʁkstə wɑs vɑn hʏn bæidə | jœyst ɔp dɑt momɛnt kʋɑm əʁ ən ʁæizəχəʁ an di χəhʏld wɑs ɪn ən ʋɑʁmə mɑntəl | zə kʋamə ovəʁen dɑt dəχenə di əʁ ət eʁst ɪn zɑu slaχə də ʁæizəχəʁ zæin mɑntəl tə dun œyttʁɛkə də stɛʁkstə zɑu ʋɔʁdə χəɑχt/
Dy nôrdywind en dy son wâry yrôfyr ân yt rêdytwisty wî dy stercsty was fan hun beidy. Iuwst op dat môment cwam yr yn reisychyr ân dî chyhuld was in yn warmy mantyl. Sy cwamy ôfyrên dat dychêny dî yr yt êrst in saw slâchy dy reisychyr sein mantyl ty dŵn uwttrecy dy stercsty saw wordy chyacht.

Shit, I keep fucking mixing up the quote and edit buttons (I did it fucking twice), so this is the third time I've recreated this post...

[Grunnen]

Dutch as Welsh
Dy nôrdywind en dy son wâry yrôfyr ân yt rêdytwisty wî dy stercsty was fan hun beidy. Iuwst op dat môment cwam yr yn reisychyr ân dî chyhuld was in yn warmy mantyl. Se cwamy ôfyrên dat dychêny dî yr yt êrst in saw slâchy dy reisychyr sein mantyl ty dŵn uwttrecy dy stercsty saw wordy chyacht.

Nice one, actually looks a lot more interesting than the original :p

[Hallow XIII]

That is because Welsh has the best orthography on the planet.

[finlay]

Dutch as Welsh
Dy nôrdywind en dy son wâry yrôfyr ân yt rêdytwisty wî dy stercsty was fan hun beidy. Iuwst op dat môment cwam yr yn reisychyr ân dî chyhuld was in yn warmy mantyl. Se cwamy ôfyrên dat dychêny dî yr yt êrst in saw slâchy dy reisychyr sein mantyl ty dŵn uwttrecy dy stercsty saw wordy chyacht.

Nice one, actually looks a lot more interesting than the original :p

そっかそっか - i think i misread an e for a schwa.

thanks :p Language A as Language B is pretty much the best way to play this game.

[finlay]

Dutch?
De noordewind en de zon ware erover aan het redetwiste wie de sterkste was van hun bijde. Juist op dat moment kwam er en rijzeger aan die gehuld was in en warme mantel. Ze kwamme overeen dat degeene die er het erst in zou slage de rijzeger zijn mantel te doen uittrekke de sterkste zou worde geacht.

(Trying to recreate the real orthography - how close am I? It's one of those languages where you can't be sure how to spell it if you can pronounce it, although fine enough if you're going the other way. also btw you mistranscribed ʋɑs as wɑs)

[finlay]

Dutch as Japanese (shoehorned badly)
/də noʁdəʋɪnd ɛn də zɔn ʋaʁə əʁovəʁ an ət ʁedətʋɪstə ʋi də stɛʁkstə wɑs vɑn hʏn bæidə | jœyst ɔp dɑt momɛnt kʋɑm əʁ ən ʁæizəχəʁ an di χəhʏld wɑs ɪn ən ʋɑʁmə mɑntəl | zə kʋamə ovəʁen dɑt dəχenə di əʁ ət eʁst ɪn zɑu slaχə də ʁæizəχəʁ zæin mɑntəl tə dun œyttʁɛkə də stɛʁkstə zɑu ʋɔʁdə χəɑχt/

で北風えんで日われえる上あーんへと議論うぃー強すてわすふぁんふん両。丁度おぷだと瞬間来えるえん旅人あーんでぃーげ包わすいんえん暖まんてる。ぜ来上一だとでげねでぃーえるへと一番いんざう成功で旅人ぜいんまんてるてづーん出引で強すてざううぉるでげ尊敬。

A problem I ran into here is that Dutch has stem changes to the word to indicate past tense and the like, which Japanese is only sort-of capable of dealing with. Like they would just write it the same way and tell you to suck it up. Also I wasn't 100% sure which suffixes had grammatical functions, which would mean they should be written with hiragana (this is a bit arbitrary in Japanese as it is). Anyway it looks awful and terrible and I don't recommend it.

[Grunnen]

Dutch?
De noordewind en de zon ware erover aan het redetwiste wie de sterkste was van hun bijde. Juist op dat moment kwam er en rijzeger aan die gehuld was in en warme mantel. Ze kwamme overeen dat degeene die er het erst in zou slage de rijzeger zijn mantel te doen uittrekke de sterkste zou worde geacht.

(Trying to recreate the real orthography - how close am I? It's one of those languages where you can't be sure how to spell it if you can pronounce it, although fine enough if you're going the other way.

De noordenwind en de zon waren erover aan het redetwisten wie de sterkste was van hun beide. Juist op dat moment kwam er een reizeger aan die gehuld was in een warme mantel. Ze kwamen overeen dat degene die er het eerst in zou slagen de reizeger zijn mantel te doen uittrekken de sterkste zou worden geacht.

We definitely write a whole lot of <n>'s we don't pronounce. Plurals of nouns can't en in <-e>, always <-en>. Verbs can be more tricky. Infinitives and plurals are always in <-en> however. Past tense singular regularly in <-e> in weak verbs. Also, on the doubling of vowels and consonants: a vowel followed by a syllable boundary is "long", if it's followed by a consonant in the same syllable it's 'short'. Single consonants between vowels are always interpreted as onsets (unless in compounds, then the original boundary is maintained). Doubled consonants are devided over the coda and onset (using consonant and vowel as shorthand for the corresponding letters). Some examples:

staf (short vowel)
staf.fen (short vowel) (non-existent but well formed word)
staaf (long vowel)
sta.ven (long vowel)

And ij/ei is a matter of learning which words go with <ei>, and then assuming the rest will be with <ij>. Just like au/ou/auw/ouw have to be learned, and g/ch (at least for people like me that don't distinguish them). And then there are loanwords that don't follow the normal patterns, but apart from that it's mostly really straightforward. Although there are still anomalies like <-isch> and stuff. And <een> is a clear exception.

also btw you mistranscribed ʋɑs as wɑs)

That's probably me being influenced by the familiar orthographic form.

[finlay]

I have rudimentary Dutch skills from a two month stay a few years back, and I know how it should be pronounced if I see it written down, but not the other way round. I kinda forgot about the -en thing though, even though again when I see it written down I know not to pronounce it. Anyway wiktionary gave me "reiziger" for traveller.

[Grunnen]

I have rudimentary Dutch skills from a two month stay a few years back, and I know how it should be pronounced if I see it written down, but not the other way round. I kinda forgot about the -en thing though, even though again when I see it written down I know not to pronounce it. Anyway wiktionary gave me "reiziger" for traveller.

haha, ja, wiktionary is right. I would never write it like reizeger normally, but going through the text like this I didn't catch it either. It's one of these little suffixes that's secured a specialised irregular spelling for itself (<-ig> I mean).