Help your fluency in a nifty way

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
Thry
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

Edit: oops I was inb4d. Nvm though.

Finlay 2 things:
laborabam again? It's a simple past! laboravi!
You cannot use -que like that. "X and Y" is X Yque [not Xque Y]; and then again you usually only use that for pairs of words, usually short, and of equal syntactical roles, i.e. Sol lunaque fulgent. Use et, ac, acque, ...

Quid est て? Particula copulativa to? Hos symbolos non lego.
What is て? The copulative conjunction to? I can't read those symbols.

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finlay
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by finlay »

Thry wrote:laborabam again? It's a simple past! laboravi!
On what basis? Because if it's the fact that I used a simple past in English, the argument doesn't fly I'm afraid. The translation is usually pretty lazy and more of a holistic approach. (It's not even in the past tense in Japanese, and it doesn't really matter)

Also, what "again"? It was the other way around last time.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by finlay »

Thry wrote:Quid est て? Particula copulativa to? Hos symbolos non lego.
What is て? The copulative conjunction to? I can't read those symbols.
toって何?てってローマ字でteだよ。
What's to? て is te (the gerundive also used as the conjunctive verb construction).

Thry
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

On what basis? Because if it's the fact that I used a simple past in English, the argument doesn't fly I'm afraid. The translation is usually pretty lazy and more of a holistic approach. (It's not even in the past tense in Japanese, and it doesn't really matter)

Also, what "again"? It was the other way around last time.
Não é por isso, mas porque "esta manhã trabalhava" soa esquisito em português, espanhol e catalão [Hoje eu *trabalhava...]. A ação é feita e única. É a mesma coisa em que eu falava a outra vez.
Not really, on the basis that "esta mañana trabajaba" sounds weird in Portuguese, Spanish and Catalan [Today, *I used to work....]. The action is done and single. It's the same thing I talked about* the other time.

Credebam id esse.
I was thinking of this.

*PS: this "talked", for instance, takes imperfect - I argued repeatedly, "was talking" over a period of time.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Izambri »

Thry wrote:Não é por isso, mas porque "esta manhã trabalhava" soa esquisito em [...] catalão [...]
Not really, on the basis that "esta mañana trabajaba" sounds weird in [...] Catalan [...].
Ci sembra strano aquest matí treballava?
Does aquest matí treballava sound weird to you?
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

No, aquest matí no treballava does [when the meaning is, "esta mañana no he trabajado"]. Would you render "Today, I didn't work, and it's my first Sunday holiday in 2 years." with an imperfect in any romance language?

PS: yea I missed the negation in the example sry

[Perchè mi tratti di ci?
why do you address me with ci?]

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Izambri »

Thry wrote:No, aquest matí no treballava does [when the meaning is, "esta mañana no he trabajado"]. Would you render "Today, I didn't work, and it's my first Sunday holiday in 2 years." with an imperfect in any romance language?
È possibile utilizzare "esta mañana no he trabajado" per tradurre "aquest matí no treballava". Se non ti dispiace le traduzioni non letterali.
You can use "esta mañana no he trabajado" to express "aquest matí no treballava", though. If you don't mind non literal translations.
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

What is the nuance? I just mind that it fits the context:
Aquest matí no he treballat ~ Esta mañana no he trabajado. [uttered at lunch time]
Aquest matí no vaig treballar ~ Esta mañana no trabajé. [uttered at 9 o'clock in the evening]

Esta mañana no trabajaba is weird to me because something that didn't happen actively cannot have a continuity; *in this context* [he means he didn't go to work]. OTOH, if you're a teacher and you're having lunch with your student, you surely could utter "esta mañana no trabajabas, eh? / aquest matí no treballaves, eh?" [you weren't working this morning, were you?] but that's simply not the case here.

Would you, in his context, say, "Avui no treballava; és el meu primer diumenge lliure en dos anys."?

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Izambri
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Izambri »

Thry wrote:What is the nuance? I just mind that it fits the context:
Aquest matí no he treballat ~ Esta mañana no he trabajado. [uttered at lunch time]
Aquest matí no vaig treballar ~ Esta mañana no trabajé. [uttered at 9 o'clock in the evening]
I agree with the first example; the he treballat -- he trabajado construction makes both sentences the same thing. But I could translate Esta mañana no he trabajado as "Aquest matí no treballava" if the action was expected or supposed (because holidays, for example).

And I would use the very same construction in Spanish:

--Esta mañana no trabajaba.
--¿Cómo es eso?
--Me debían un día libre y lo pillé para hoy.


But the second one sounds wrong to me. I'm talking about the Catalan one: Aquest matí no vaig treballar. I would translate Spanish Esta mañana no trabajé as "aquest matí no he treballat", but "aquest matí no he estat treballant", "aquest matí no treballava" or "aquest matí no estava treballant" also do the job.
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

Pois, mas estás a argumentar um espantalho - a oração pertinente é a outra, que é aquela que ele disse e a que não estás a prestar atenção [...]. Isso era só um equivalente sem contexto que eu fiz para exemplificar a forma verbal [e tanto faz esta manhã ou hoje]. Seja como for:
Sure, but you're arguing a strawman - the relevant sentence is the other one, which is the one he uttered and you're not paying attention to ["Avui no treballava; és el meu primer diumenge lliure en dos anys."]. That was just a context-less equivalent I gave to exemplify the verbal form [and avui or aquest matí, whatever]. Anyway:
--Esta mañana no trabajaba.
--¿Cómo es eso?
--Me debían un día libre y lo pillé para hoy.
I'm not sure lol. Are you talking before or after you are supposed to be working?

The context I didn't mention in which I'd also use it is for remembering stuff:

-Ehm... quan deies que no treballaves?
-Aquest matí no treballava.
-Ah, és veritat, ho havia oblidat.

-Ehm... when did you say you weren't working?
-It's this morning I wasn't working.
-Oh, right, I had forgotten.

I feel like the thing you uttered could be an extension of this... don't ask how. If so, then it sounds acceptable.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Izambri »

Thry wrote:Pois, mas estás a argumentar um espantalho - a oração pertinente é a outra, que é aquela que ele disse e a que não estás a prestar atenção [...]. Isso era só um equivalente sem contexto que eu fiz para exemplificar a forma verbal [e tanto faz esta manhã ou hoje]. Seja como for:
Sure, but you're arguing a strawman - the relevant sentence is the other one, which is the one he uttered and you're not paying attention to ["Avui no treballava; és el meu primer diumenge lliure en dos anys."]. That was just a context-less equivalent I gave to exemplify the verbal form [and avui or aquest matí, whatever].
No sé de quina frase rellevant em parles ara, però segur que no n'estava parlant o no en parlava en relació al seu context original.**
I don't know what relevant sentence are you talking about; with so many sentences I'm lost. But I'm sure I wasn't talking about ir I wasn't talking with its given context.

**Tot ha començat pequè en un moment donat has dit «on the basis that "esta mañana trabajaba" sounds weird in [...] Catalan [...]». I considerat així, tal com sona, no és cert. I en l'altre missatge he estat parlant de com dic jo algunes frases en català i castellà, sense tenir en compte cap precedent de la teva conversa prèvia amb en finlay.
--Esta mañana no trabajaba.
--¿Cómo es eso?
--Me debían un día libre y lo pillé para hoy.
I'm not sure lol. Are you talking before or after you are supposed to be working?
Después, claro. Para antes, presente de indicativo:
After, obviously. If before, Present Indicative:

--Esta mañana no trabajo.

A lo que añado que raramente diré Esta mañana no trabajaré (insisto: si es algo que ya era sabido o estaba previsto).

Y en caso de tener lugar la conversación el dia precedente, lo mismo, presente de indicativo (con mañana en lugar de hoy o esta mañana, lógicamente):

--Mañana no trabajo.

No me sonaría mal (lo se dice mal) usar en este último caso el futuro (Mañana no trabajaré) pero sí me sonaría un raro, ya que la acción está prevista o se da por hecha (aunque todavía no haya tenido lugar).
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

Concordo com a coisa do presente, isso é o que eu diria.
I agree about the present thing, that's what I'd say.

A oração relevante está na minha própria ultima mensagem. Acho que nesse contexto é esquisito o imperfeito.
The relevant sentence is in my very last post: ["Avui no treballava; és el meu primer diumenge lliure en dos anys."] I think in that context the imperfect is weird.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Astraios »

Mm, it's definitely perfect there. I'd go with je n'ai pas travaillé there too and not je travaillais. Imperfect is for a different context.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Astraios »

امروز که بکتابخانه رفتم یک کتاب چیستن‌های بزبان فارسی یافتم و چند از آن‌ها در دفتر خود نوشتم. آیا اینجا کسی‌ست که می‌تواند بدین چیستان اول جواب بدهد: آن چیست که هرچه می‌کشند کوچکتر می‌شود؟
Emruz ke beketâbxâne raftam yek ketâb-e cistânhâ-ye bezabân-e fârsi yâftam-o cand az ânhâ dar daftar-e xod neveštam. Âyâ injâ kas-i st ke mi-tavânad bedin cistân-e avval javâb bedehad: Ân ci st ke harce mikešand kucaktar mišavad?
Today when I went to the library I found a book of riddles in Persian and I wrote some of them in my notebook. Is there anyone here who can answer this first riddle: What gets smaller the more you draw it?

!אסור לגגל את התשובה
Asur legagel et hatšuva!
No Googling the answer!

Thry
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

El llapis? El blanc del paper?
The pencil? The white space in the paper?

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Astraios »

!سیگار چون [داد] اون کشید میشه. حالا تو برام یکی بده
Sigâr cun [dud-e] un kešid miše. Hâlâ to barâm yek-i bede!
A cigarette because it[s smoke] is drawn. Now you give me one!

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

Pffff ça n'est pas juste! L'anglais n'est pas ma langue maternelle.
PFFF no fair! English is not my mother tongue.

Je ne peux pas te payer en cigarretes, mais il y aura bien sûr une autre manière.
I can't pay you in cigarrettes, but surely there are other ways.

Avec des chèvres?
In goats?
Last edited by Thry on Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Hallow XIII »

Was ist kürzer, je länger es wird?
What gets shorter the longer it gets?
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

Thry
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

El nombre d'intents de suïcidi?
The number of suicide attempts?

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Astraios »

Thry wrote:Pffff ça n'est pas juste! L'anglais n'est pas ma langue maternelle.
PFFF no fair! English is not my mother tongue.
Mais tu savais que draw est aussi tirer !
You knew that draw is also pull!

Thry wrote:Avec des chèvres?
In goats?
Les plus rares et intéressants, s'il te plaît.
The rarest and most interesting ones, please.

Hallow XIII wrote:Was ist kürzer, je länger es wird?
What gets shorter the longer it gets?
La vie ! Celle-là j'ai déjà entendu.
Life! I've already heard that one.

.عجایب خلقتی دیدم درین دشت، سرشرا میبریدند زنده میگشت
Ajâyeb xelqat-i didam dar-in dašt, sareš-râ miboridand zende migašt.
Lit: I saw a strange creature in this land, they cut off its head and it came back to life.
What comes back to life when you cut off its head?

EDIT: Made it easier by putting it in a normal English riddle format.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Astraios »

Thry wrote:Je ne peux pas te payer en cigarretes, mais il y aura bien sûr une autre manière.
I can't pay you in cigarrettes, but surely there are other ways.
I meant give me a riddle, btw.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

¿Qué animal tiene cuatro patas al amanecer, dos al mediodía y tres al anochecer?
What animal has four legs at dawn, two at noon and three at dusk?

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Astraios »

.נוווו
Nuuuu.
Oh come on, a better one. :p

!ותענה על שלי
Vetaané al šelí!
And answer mine!

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Thry »

Però si ja m'has dit la solució!
But you told the answer already!

Oro parece
Plata no es
¿Qué es amarillo,
y blanco del revés?

It seems gold,
It's not silver
What is yellow
And white inside-out?

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Astraios »

!تخم مرغ
Toxm-e morq!
An egg!


.یکی دیگه نوشتم: عجایب خلقتی دیدم درین دشت، سرشرا میبریدند زنده میگشت
Yek-i dige neveštam: ajâyeb xelqat-i didam dar-in dašt, sareš-râ miboridand zende migašt.
I wrote another one: what comes back to life when you cut off its head?

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