The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

Do all of you have me on ignore or what? I just said that there were Quakers who preserved 'thee' and 'thou' into the 20th century.

Wikipedia says: "Today there are still Friends that will use "thee" with other Quakers." But that's uncited.

Also: http://www.sls.hawaii.edu/bley-vroman/thee.txt
Some Quakers will use plain speech, especially "thee", when
speaking to other Quakers but will use ordinary English when
speaking to non-Quakers. Plain speech is most likely now to
be used in formalized Quaker contexts--the same situations
where "Friend" as a form of address is most common, and,
occasionally, one sees plain speech used in Quaker Internet
newsgroups. In these contexts, plain speech, like the
prominent use of "Friend" or other typical Quaker phraseology
("This Friend speaks my mind"; "Way will open", etc.), calls
attention to the essentially Quaker character of the
discourse in which it is used. It reminds everyone "We are
Quakers here." This function is quite different from what one
finds in the seventeenth through nineteenth centuries.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Civil War Bugle »

Actually, you're right, this is what I get for skimming too much. I somehow overlooked what you actually said in favour of what I wanted you to say.

An attempt to placate Weeping Elf by sort of returning to PIE: I was going to get a couple of books on the subject out of the local community college library, but it turns out that the library is being renovated and those books were among the ones they put into storage in the interim.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Fair. There is nothing wrong with discussing where thou (ObPIE: < PIE *tuH) has survived longest per se; but it does not yield any insights on the nature of Proto-Indo-European and thus does not belong here.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by TaylorS »

Wow, this thread got hijacked.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Pabappa »

So does anyone seriously believe the PIE stop system included "velars, uvulars, and labialized uvulars", as often implied ? It seems to me /k q qʷ g ɢ ɢʷ gh ɢh ɢʷh/ is far more unstable than the classical three-series system that it is supposed to be replacing. Even if you go all voiceless and make it /k q qʷ k' q' q'ʷ kh qh qʷh/ you have to explain why labialized uvulars are 10-20X more common than plain uvulars and why there are no labialized velars at all. I would think that *at least* changing it to /k q kʷ/ would give it at least the ability to exist temporarily as a stable stop system. For those married to the qʷ theory one could at least say that kʷ and qʷ were once both real, and collapsed into kʷ. I think the whole problem should be solved by eliminating the three-series theory altogether and just saying that it was k kʷ, with no uvulars of any kind, but I could respect a modified three-series theory.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Particles the Greek »

The main problem with PIE is that it's like the worst kind of bumpy carpet: you try to remove one bump and several other bumps pop up elsewhere. An important part of PIE studies is learning which bumps to accept.
Non fidendus est crocodilus quis posteriorem dentem acerbum conquetur.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by vokzhen »

Publipis wrote:So does anyone seriously believe the PIE stop system included "velars, uvulars, and labialized uvulars", as often implied ? It seems to me /k q qʷ g ɢ ɢʷ gh ɢh ɢʷh/ is far more unstable than the classical three-series system that it is supposed to be replacing. Even if you go all voiceless and make it /k q qʷ k' q' q'ʷ kh qh qʷh/ you have to explain why labialized uvulars are 10-20X more common than plain uvulars and why there are no labialized velars at all. I would think that *at least* changing it to /k q kʷ/ would give it at least the ability to exist temporarily as a stable stop system. For those married to the qʷ theory one could at least say that kʷ and qʷ were once both real, and collapsed into kʷ. I think the whole problem should be solved by eliminating the three-series theory altogether and just saying that it was k kʷ, with no uvulars of any kind, but I could respect a modified three-series theory.
We expect a somewhat unstable system, though, considering it rearranged into one of several different sets of consonants. I'm pretty sure people who consider it as /k q qʷ/ assume that the labial-uvulars are a result of rounding velars, reinforced to be more "dark" by backing them as well, similar to how rounded vowels tend to be more back than their unrounded counterparts, and more directly, I'm pretty sure there's North American languages where there's a prevelar, postvelar, and labiovelar, where the labiovelar is either in between the two or back-velar in position. (I'm also fairly sure I've seen inventories of /k q qʷ/, but I'm unable to refind them). You end up with a system where labio-uvulars come from rounding and darkening of velars in rounded contexts, q from velars in back contexts, and k elsewhere, exactly like the ḱ k kw system, where k/q basically only appears in a few contexts and both ḱ/k and kw/qʷ are more common.

Of course, I'm also not sure there's any problem with saying the system was /k kʷ q/, and while I haven't done much searching, I haven't found anyone arguing hard that the rounded one specifically was uvular. The important part is velar-uvular opposed to palatovelar-velar, and the exact position of the labiovelar is largely irrelevant because it's as likely to undergo the changes it did either way.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

When discussing the PIE velar series, I prefer using the agnostic terms "front velars" and "back velars" over "palatovelars"/"plain velars" or "velars"/"uvulars" because we simply don't know and will perhaps never know which the exact places of articulation were. They could have shifted easily, and may have been different from dialect to dialect. Yet, the "front" PoA seems to have been the less "marked" of the two, as the "front velars" were more frequent than the unlabialized "back velars". This may point at the "front velars" having been plain velars and the "back velars" having been uvulars, but in the "satem" dialects, both PoAs would have shifted forward.

At any rate, the labiovelars seem to have had the same PoA as the back velars. My personal hypothesis is that in Pre-PIE, one velar series split into three, depending on the colour of neighbouring vowels (front vowels giving front velars, unrounded non-front vowels giving back velars, and rounded vowels giving labiovelars); then, the original vowel colours were lost in the "Great Vowel Collapse". And as the language apparently lacked front rounded vowels, no labialized front velars cropped up, as I have already mentioned in this thread.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

Evidence for the labialised and backed dorsals being at the same PoA comes from the former being unrounded into the latter by a neighbouring u~w.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

I know that Sanskrit voiceless aspirates reflect sequences of PIE voiceless stop + h₂ (cf. ásthāt), but can they also reflect sequences of PIE voiceless stop + h₃?

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Neek »

As far as I am aware, Indo-Aryan's voiceless aspirate stops were formed from any of the lyrangeals. But for some reason, lyrangeals piss me off. I don't know why. I think I'd be happier if we just assumed they were [h x x_w] or something equally simply, so I can stop looking at those subscript h's.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

Hm, apparently h₁ didn't, though.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Xephyr »

Neek wrote:As far as I am aware, Indo-Aryan's voiceless aspirate stops were formed from any of the lyrangeals. But for some reason, lyrangeals piss me off. I don't know why. I think I'd be happier if we just assumed they were [h x x_w] or something equally simply, so I can stop looking at those subscript h's.
/agree
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Neek wrote:As far as I am aware, Indo-Aryan's voiceless aspirate stops were formed from any of the lyrangeals. But for some reason, lyrangeals piss me off. I don't know why. I think I'd be happier if we just assumed they were [h x x_w] or something equally simply, so I can stop looking at those subscript h's.
The point is, of course, that such an assumption is, well, an assumption. The h-index notation has the advantage that it doesn't suggest a particular set of phonetic values which may turn out to be wrong.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

I'm presently operating on the assumption of [h χ x], where h < f, χʷ

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by GreenBowTie »

i'm gonna try (yet again) to do an IE lang, assuming that the "palatals" are regular velars and that the "plain velars" and labiovelars are uvular. i also want to do stuff with the laryngeals as consonants; is h₁ = ɣ, h₂ = ʁ, h₃ = ʁʷ a reasonable enough interpretation? voiceless realizations seem to be more common interpretations but if they alternate as vowels/syllable nucleus (like y/i, w/u, etc.) it seems to me they would be likelier to be voiced in their consonant versions

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by CatDoom »

GreenBowTie wrote:i'm gonna try (yet again) to do an IE lang, assuming that the "palatals" are regular velars and that the "plain velars" and labiovelars are uvular. i also want to do stuff with the laryngeals as consonants; is h₁ = ɣ, h₂ = ʁ, h₃ = ʁʷ a reasonable enough interpretation? voiceless realizations seem to be more common interpretations but if they alternate as vowels/syllable nucleus (like y/i, w/u, etc.) it seems to me they would be likelier to be voiced in their consonant versions
Well, I think there's good reason to believe that /s/ was voiceless (though possibly allophonically voiced, as was the case in early proto-Germanic before stress became uniformly word-initial), and languages with only one fricative series tend to realize them as voiceless by default. I think written Hittite might provide evidence that the Anatolian reflexes of h₂ and h₃ were some kind of voiceless fricative, but I'm really not sure. In any event, that might only have been the case word-initially, since even Hittite lost the laryngeals in other positions.

It's worth noting that, although it's an extremely rare feature, there are some languages that allow voiceless fricatives to act as syllable nuclei.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Neek »

WeepingElf wrote:
Neek wrote:As far as I am aware, Indo-Aryan's voiceless aspirate stops were formed from any of the lyrangeals. But for some reason, lyrangeals piss me off. I don't know why. I think I'd be happier if we just assumed they were [h x x_w] or something equally simply, so I can stop looking at those subscript h's.
The point is, of course, that such an assumption is, well, an assumption. The h-index notation has the advantage that it doesn't suggest a particular set of phonetic values which may turn out to be wrong.
I'm looking at it from a conlanging perspective: It's completely impossible to put up with aesthetically. It's a ridiculous convention. We might as well mark them e̯ a̯ o̯ because it'd be more honest about their entire purpose than phonological pronounciation. But there's also the problem with the lyrangeal theory: So far, it looks like wild mass guessing. No one is willing to be called out as wrong, so they try to obscure their aimless guesswork as much as possible to censure critics, but really? If someone comes up with a baseless theory that looks elegant, we can then knock him down and retain his elegance in at least an effort to find out the truth.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Sleinad Flar »

CatDoom wrote:I think written Hittite might provide evidence that the Anatolian reflexes of h₂ and h₃ were some kind of voiceless fricative, but I'm really not sure. In any event, that might only have been the case word-initially, since even Hittite lost the laryngeals in other positions.
According to Kloekhorst's Historical Grammar of Hittite h₂ was retained in a number of positions (word-initially (except before /o/, intervocally (as -ḫḫ-), between /s/ and V, in CRHV), and h₃ was only retained word-initially before /e/ and in CRHV. The single/double spelling was intervocally used for a lenis/fortis (or alternatively voiced/voiceless) distinction, but we cannot be sure if initial consonants were voiceless or voiced. As the geminate spelling indicates, h₂ was retained as a voiceless (or fortis) consonant intervocally, hence it's likely it was voiceless in other positions as well. The same cannot be said for the outcome of h₃, because it was (almost) only retained word-initially, and Hittite doesn't distinguish in spelling between lenis/fortis (or voiced/voiceless) in that position. Evidence from other languages seem to indicate a voicedness of h₃, e.g. *piph₃eti > post-PIE *pibeti > Sanskrit pibati, Latin bibit, Old Irish ibid (present stem formed by reduplication of root *peh₃(i̯)-), but the evidence is patchy and inconclusive.
Neek wrote:I'm looking at it from a conlanging perspective: It's completely impossible to put up with aesthetically. It's a ridiculous convention. We might as well mark them e̯ a̯ o̯ because it'd be more honest about their entire purpose than phonological pronounciation. But there's also the problem with the lyrangeal theory: So far, it looks like wild mass guessing. No one is willing to be called out as wrong, so they try to obscure their aimless guesswork as much as possible to censure critics, but really? If someone comes up with a baseless theory that looks elegant, we can then knock him down and retain his elegance in at least an effort to find out the truth.
The trouble is that e̯ a̯ o̯ would imply that they are semivowels like i̯ u̯, standing in the same allophonic relationship to e a o as the latter to i u. This is most certainly not the case: they are seperate phonemes, and in the case of h₂ their consonantness is pretty certain (see above) and far from aimless guesswork.
I have no problem with the hx convention, and indeed its use of makes PIE instantly recognizable to read. Whether the laryngeals should be reconstructed as often as they are is another matter: quite often a laryngeal is used just to fill an "empty" spot in a root, because someone somewhere decided that a PIE root cannot start with a vowel. That way lies circular reasoning.
GreenBowTie wrote: also want to do stuff with the laryngeals as consonants
My advise is: get rid of them. They're not worth it.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Pabappa »

I like how everyone disagrees with everyone else. It's that way in the scholar field too, I guess. Every PIE scholar disagrees with every other PIE scholar, because there's just so many unknowns, so we have fifty different versions of Schleicher's fable, etc. I still think /k q qʷ/ is ridiculous, but that's just my opinion, and my opinion is just one among many.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by GreenBowTie »

GreenBowTie wrote: also want to do stuff with the laryngeals as consonants
My advise is: get rid of them. They're not worth it.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Xephyr »

WeepingElf wrote:
Neek wrote:As far as I am aware, Indo-Aryan's voiceless aspirate stops were formed from any of the lyrangeals. But for some reason, lyrangeals piss me off. I don't know why. I think I'd be happier if we just assumed they were [h x x_w] or something equally simply, so I can stop looking at those subscript h's.
The point is, of course, that such an assumption is, well, an assumption. The h-index notation has the advantage that it doesn't suggest a particular set of phonetic values which may turn out to be wrong.
Yes, that's the usual defense, and for me personally it has never seemed a good one. Lots of things in historical linguistic reconstructions are assumption... lots. Like the nature of phonation distinctions in stop series. Or the nature of two contrasting coronal fricatives. If you are someone who is looking at a proto-language to begin with it's generally assumed that you know that. But we tend not to give protolanguages fricative inventories of s1 s2 or stop inventories of p1 p2 t1 t2 k1 k2... so why not just make an orthographic simplification with PIE laryngeals?
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Valdeut »

Xephyr wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:The point is, of course, that such an assumption is, well, an assumption. The h-index notation has the advantage that it doesn't suggest a particular set of phonetic values which may turn out to be wrong.
Yes, that's the usual defense, and for me personally it has never seemed a good one. Lots of things in historical linguistic reconstructions are assumption... lots. Like the nature of phonation distinctions in stop series. Or the nature of two contrasting coronal fricatives. If you are someone who is looking at a proto-language to begin with it's generally assumed that you know that. But we tend not to give protolanguages fricative inventories of s1 s2 or stop inventories of p1 p2 t1 t2 k1 k2... so why not just make an orthographic simplification with PIE laryngeals?
Actually, you do see that kind of notation. Proto-Kartvelian is typically reconstructed with three series of central affricates and sibilants. The voiceless sibilants, for example, are commonly written *s s₁ š (somewhat illogically). Subscript or superscript numerals are also quite common in comparative afro-asiatic linguistics. Since there is quite a bit of controversy in semitic linguistics over how the original pronunciation of the coronal fricatives/affricates, it's not uncommon to write *s₁ s₂ s₃ for traditional *š ś s. And then there's Germanic *ē₂ (and *ē₁), to give another example.

I don't think it's a good idea to "just assume a pronunciation" if the pronunciation is a point of controversy or if it's generally uncertain. You could argue that it's just an orthographic convention, and is by no means meant to signify that there is agreement on how the phoneme was pronounced, but in practice it will probably be impossible to make everyone agree upon a convention if it's biased towards one side of a debate (it's hard enough even with a neutral proposal). Someone who strongly believes that *h₁ was [ʔ], *h₂ [ħ] and *h₃ [ʕ] is likely to not accept h, x and . The effect is, of course, multiple competing conventions which is generally a bad thing. Note that some (but not all) supporters of the various glottalic theories use different notation for the PIE plosives, so in hindsight, using dʱ etc. was probably not the best idea. It's more valuable that the conventions are widely agreed upon than that they are aesthetically pleasing.

It's better to use symbols that don't strongly suggest a certain pronunciation. This doesn't necessarily mean using subscript numerals, however. I personally dislike this convention too, both because it's ugly and because it can be hard to remember which symbol is which. But it's possible to use "neutral" diacritics or use letters that are not strongly associated with a certain pronunciation. The semitic convention of writing emphatic consonants with a dot (ṭ, ḳ, ṣ etc) is a good example of this. There is disagreement over whether the emphatics were originally ejective, or pharyngealized, or something else, but since the dot doesn't really suggest any particular pronunciation, different authors can still agree on how to write them.

Writing *h₃ as is a particularly bad idea since it quite unambiguously specifies a labialized pronunciation, something which is by no means certain and which some linguists would probably argue against. Apart from the unlikelyhood that the convention will be widely adopted, the specificity in itself is actually misleading as it might suggest to the reader that labialization is widely agreed upon. Using x for either laryngeal is not a bad idea, however. Even if there is an IPA-value associated with the letter, it is widely used for many different pronunciations in the world's languages (and x is often used to signify something unknown).

Obviously, there are a number of neutral ways in which the laryngeals could have been written, many of which I would personally prefer over the subscript numerals. But it's unlikely that the current convention will change...
h₁ h₂ h₃ (h₄) H
x ẋ ẍ (ẍ̇) X
ḥ ẖ ḩ (ȟ) h͓
q x c (ȝ) ḥ
ɿ ƨ з (ч) x

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

Are there any articles discussing the possible change of PIE *b into *w and/or *m? I have some ideas concerning this, which I'd like to compare to mainstream thought.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Xephyr »

Valdeut wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to "just assume a pronunciation" if the pronunciation is a point of controversy or if it's generally uncertain.
Yeah, I agree-- assuming a pronunciation, though, isn't the same as arbitrarily assigning an orthography.

I was actually going to bring up the Proto-Semitic sibilants, as I had not heard of people using numbers for those. Let's hope that doesn't become a trend. But otherwise yes, "neutral" diacritics doesn't seem like a bad idea. Let's say, <h h́ ĥ>.
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