All the rumors dude!, including this wonderfull mess of a vowel system (this only includes phonemic vowels according to Nina Grønnum, most of them come both long and short, and with/without "stød" (creaky voice ([ʔ] i some dialects)). In total Diederichsen has counted up more than 40 vowel phonemes! This is of course violent and unstable.hwhatting wrote:Spoken Danish... the rumours are all true. We went to Copenhagen over the new year, and while understanding written Danish is doable with knowing German and English, I was unable to understand almost anything spoken (Except für Godt Nytår, because I heard that often enough )
Odd natlang features thread
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Languages i speak fluently: Dansk, English
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Re: Odd natlang features thread
So more like 64 vowels. And Danish is the only language to have a low front rounded vowel.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
http://julietteblevins.ws.gc.cuny.edu/f ... pology.pdfIn several different subgroups of Austro-Asiatic, all words end in consonants.
This was true of Dvaravati Old Mon, and holds for modern Palaungic, Khmuic, and
Aslian branches, where final open syllables do not exist except in borrowings.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Well not 64 phonemes due to reduction and rules for the distribution of stød based on vowel length, following consonants, placement of syllabic stress, ... Also stød can be interpreted as a prosodic feature rather than a property of the vowels which leaves one with "only" ~32 vowel phonemes.Birdlang wrote:So more like 64 vowels. And Danish is the only language to have a low front rounded vowel.
With regars to /ɶ/ danish is the only language I know has one and when looking at the WALS page for front rounded vowels it seems plausible that it is very rare or even restricted to danish but do you have any source for that. If yes, then i would really like to see it.
Languages i speak fluently: Dansk, English
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Does Danish distinguish between /ɶ/ and other front rounded phonemes?gufferdk wrote:Well not 64 phonemes due to reduction and rules for the distribution of stød based on vowel length, following consonants, placement of syllabic stress, ... Also stød can be interpreted as a prosodic feature rather than a property of the vowels which leaves one with "only" ~32 vowel phonemes.Birdlang wrote:So more like 64 vowels. And Danish is the only language to have a low front rounded vowel.
With regars to /ɶ/ danish is the only language I know has one and when looking at the WALS page for front rounded vowels it seems plausible that it is very rare or even restricted to danish but do you have any source for that. If yes, then i would really like to see it.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Kalaallisut is the only language with a uvular nasal.
(There are four languages with one in PHOIBLE, but the 'uvular nasal' in Japanese [and Burmese, which isn't listed] is a convention of notation, the Kusunda uvular nasal is probably a /ŋʕ/ cluster, and the fourth is Kinyarwanda, which doesn't have one.)
Some rGyalrongic languages have contrastive velarization on vowels. (IIRC Japhug turned velarization into a preceding ɣ, but I could be wrong.) In Showu Rgyalrong, velarized vowels contrast with Vɣ ɣV sequences. Velarized vowels could show up elsewhere in Sino-Tibetan -- I wonder if that's what distinguishes Yi <y u> from <yr ur>.
(There are four languages with one in PHOIBLE, but the 'uvular nasal' in Japanese [and Burmese, which isn't listed] is a convention of notation, the Kusunda uvular nasal is probably a /ŋʕ/ cluster, and the fourth is Kinyarwanda, which doesn't have one.)
Some rGyalrongic languages have contrastive velarization on vowels. (IIRC Japhug turned velarization into a preceding ɣ, but I could be wrong.) In Showu Rgyalrong, velarized vowels contrast with Vɣ ɣV sequences. Velarized vowels could show up elsewhere in Sino-Tibetan -- I wonder if that's what distinguishes Yi <y u> from <yr ur>.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Colloquial Indonesian, and (formal Indonesian to some level) distinguish gender in 2nd person pronoun but not in 3rd (or 1st).
But then again, I think this is mostly true for many languages in Asia.
But then again, I think this is mostly true for many languages in Asia.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Mongolic aspiration processes are triggered by /s ʃ/.
Dissimilation in Chahar:
*tʰatʰa > tatʰ
*tʃʰikʰin > tʃix
*kʰitʰat > kitʰat
*tʰosun > tɔs
*tʃʰisun > tʃʊs
Leftward aspiration jump in Monguor:
*totʰara > tʰutor
*tøtʃʰin > tʰitʃin
*pitʃʰi > pʰutʃi
*kasihun > xaʃin
*pyse > pʰusee
*ykʰy > xuku
----
Aspirated fricatives in Chumashan derived from either Fh clusters or degemination of F:. Aspirated fricatives from degemination also in Southern Subanen.
Dissimilation in Chahar:
*tʰatʰa > tatʰ
*tʃʰikʰin > tʃix
*kʰitʰat > kitʰat
*tʰosun > tɔs
*tʃʰisun > tʃʊs
Leftward aspiration jump in Monguor:
*totʰara > tʰutor
*tøtʃʰin > tʰitʃin
*pitʃʰi > pʰutʃi
*kasihun > xaʃin
*pyse > pʰusee
*ykʰy > xuku
----
Aspirated fricatives in Chumashan derived from either Fh clusters or degemination of F:. Aspirated fricatives from degemination also in Southern Subanen.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
This is also true for Iraqw (Cushitic, Tanzania)Yaali Annar wrote:Colloquial Indonesian, and (formal Indonesian to some level) distinguish gender in 2nd person pronoun but not in 3rd (or 1st).
But then again, I think this is mostly true for many languages in Asia.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
I was having a look around PHOIBLE and discovered that Mwotlap/Motlav is listed as having /m̃ʷ/. That's right, a nasalized nasal.
Am... am I missing something?
Either way, I think it definitely qualifies as "odd".
Am... am I missing something?
Either way, I think it definitely qualifies as "odd".
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Somebody fucked up. My guess is that whoever added the data saw that /ŋmʷ/ (not /mʷ/) is written <m̃> and got confused. They also left out /k/, and wrote the prenasalized stops with tildes, which is retarded and obviously against convention.alynnidalar wrote:I was having a look around PHOIBLE and discovered that Mwotlap/Motlav is listed as having /m̃ʷ/. That's right, a nasalized nasal.
Am... am I missing something?
Either way, I think it definitely qualifies as "odd".
These inventory databases can be statistically useful, because the inevitable data-entry fuckups won't generate *that* much noise, but they can't be trusted about any individual language. Mwotlap is a fairly normal language for its area -- the only thing odd about its phoneme inventory is the (non-contrastively) labialized labial-velars, and I wonder how common the phonetic detail of labialization is...
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Well, that certainly makes a great deal more sense. I was wondering if something like that was going on. Serves as an excellent lesson to not just blindly trust your resources!
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Is there any way to contact them about the mix-up?Nortaneous wrote:Somebody fucked up. My guess is that whoever added the data saw that /ŋmʷ/ (not /mʷ/) is written <m̃> and got confused. They also left out /k/, and wrote the prenasalized stops with tildes, which is retarded and obviously against convention.alynnidalar wrote:I was having a look around PHOIBLE and discovered that Mwotlap/Motlav is listed as having /m̃ʷ/. That's right, a nasalized nasal.
Am... am I missing something?
Either way, I think it definitely qualifies as "odd".
These inventory databases can be statistically useful, because the inevitable data-entry fuckups won't generate *that* much noise, but they can't be trusted about any individual language. Mwotlap is a fairly normal language for its area -- the only thing odd about its phoneme inventory is the (non-contrastively) labialized labial-velars, and I wonder how common the phonetic detail of labialization is...
Re: Odd natlang features thread
I just checked that site, and their Finnish page was also odd. It reported vowels /ɛ e: o o: a a: e̯/. There are no quality differences between long and short vowels; the mid vowels are mid and not mid-high or mid-low, so it's odd that they wrote /ɛ e:/. The /a a:/ are supposed to be back. First I thought that they were just not being that detailed, but the vowel chart showed all vowels in their cardinal positions, so that was wrong. And I checked and saw that for example Maori reportedly had /ɑ ɑ:/ with no /a a:/. And what on Earth is that /e̯/??
Re: Odd natlang features thread
It looks like that's how whoever entered the data has chosen to represent /j/ (which is absent from the inventory given). It's definitely a weird way of representing itQwynegold wrote:And what on Earth is that /e̯/??
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Oh, I see. And yeah, then why not /i̯/? I mean, it's not lowered somehow.sangi39 wrote:It looks like that's how whoever entered the data has chosen to represent /j/ (which is absent from the inventory given). It's definitely a weird way of representing itQwynegold wrote:And what on Earth is that /e̯/??
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Mussau has quadral number. (only in the pronouns, as is typical for number distinction in Oceania)
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
Quadral number? What a weird term. Just say it distinguishes singular, dualis, trialis and plural please. We don't call sg-du-pl systems 'trial number' either do we? ( in fact in english the -is endings are usually dropped, giving dual and trial, though trial sounds a bit confusing to me).Theta wrote:Mussau has quadral number. (only in the pronouns, as is typical for number distinction in Oceania)
And having a trialis is unusual cross-linguistically, but it occurs in many languages in Oceania and some traces of it are found in the Bislama pidgin language of vanuatu.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
How about you read the fucking paper before you make assumptions about the terminology. The section on Mussau is on page 8.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
I think it's less weird when you figure out that the dual-trial-quadral distinction in oceanic language is basically pronoun + numeral.
Re: Odd natlang features thread
Well that depends a lot on dialect (a vowel system of that caliber is, of course, unstable). In the way i speak it does not, [ɶ] simply being an allophone of /œ/. In my neighbours dialect however /ɛ/ becomes rounded to varying degree when reduced which means that we have a minimal set consisting of something like:Pole, the wrote:Does Danish distinguish between /ɶ/ and other front rounded phonemes?gufferdk wrote:Answers to questions aboweBirdlang wrote:Stuff about danish
<dyr> /dyˀr/ (animal)
<dør> /døˀr/ (die(s))
<der> /dœ̜ˀr/ (there) (/dɛˀr/)
<dør> /dɶˀr/ (door)
Edit: DISCLAIMER: This is the way I personally analyze it. This is a relatively heavily discussed subject though.
Languages i speak fluently: Dansk, English
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Languages i am studying: Deutsch, Español
Re: Odd natlang features thread
From https://www.uni-jena.de/unijenamedia/Do ... sed%5D.pdf, emphasis in original:
1.4.3. Metathesis. Another feature that spreads is labialization, as when a 1st-person subject
marker appears directly before the root. In some instances the metathesized labial feature attaches to
the root-initial consonant, in other cases the vowel is rounded: e.g. UBal {xw-re:ka} => rwe:ka,
rœ:ka; cp. Lashx lo:kwar ‘I said’; in the Laxamulan variety of Lower Bal, the /w/ migrates all the
way to the second consonant of the root: {xw-rekar} fi rekwar ‘I said’. The direction of spread
also varies: {a-xw-t’´x} => UBal/LBal/Lshx ot’´əx, Lntx at’ux ‘I returned it’.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
https://www.academia.edu/214115/Adjaria ... n_Armenian
word-initial voiced consonants front following back vowels in some Armenian dialects
word-initial voiced consonants front following back vowels in some Armenian dialects
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
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Re: Odd natlang features thread
The vowel system of Zizhiluo Nusu:
Code: Select all
ɿ ɿ̃
i y ɯ u i̠ u̠ ĩ ũ ũ˞
e ɵ o e̠ o̠ ẽ ɵ̃ õ ẽ˞
ɛ ə ɔ ɛ̠ ə̠ ɔ̠ ɛ̃ ə̃ ɔ̃ ə˞ ɔ˞ ə̃˞
ɑ ɑ̠ ɑ̃ ɑ˞ ɑ̃˞ ɑ̠˞ ɑ̠̃˞
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.