[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
zompist bboard • View topic - A new approach to modelling vowel space???

zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:07 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:34 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Posts: 707
Location: Three of them
No, I'm not attempting to overturn decades' worth of study by people vastly more qualified than myself. I'm just wondering how much merit there is in an idea I had after reading Lass's [i]Phonology[/i] and some other material on dependency phonology.

Ignoring rounded vowels for now, since I'm not sure how rounding fits into this, we start with three non-negative integral values, one for each of:

- i-quality, or high-frontness
- a-quality, or openness
- u-quality, or high-backness

implicitly treating vowel space as triangular rather than rectangular, which we justify on the grounds that triangular vowel systems are much more common.

We restrict these values such that at least one must be zero, and the sum cannot exceed 4.

So, as fundamentals, we have [i] = 400, [a] = 040, and [u] = 004; this can be extended to [e] = 310, [ɛ] = 220, [æ] = 130, [ɔ] = 022, and [o] = 013. 202 will then represent [ɨ]. Note that these all sum to 4, and are the most distinctive vowel phones. If we characterise [ə] as 000, we then have [ɪ] = 200, [ɐ] = 020, [ʊ] = 002; and [ɜ] = 110, [ɘ] probably = 210.

OK, so this is only a beginning, and it needs some tweaking to allow for rounding; but there might be something in it, assuming it hasn't been done before. It might be relevant to synaesthesia in some way, too. Any thoughts?


Last edited by alice on Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:00 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:21 pm
Posts: 92
Location: Taipeium, Respublica Sinarum
How to distinguish [a], [ʌ] and [ɑ]?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:04 pm 
Sanno
Sanno
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: One of the dark places of the world
What does this have to do with phonology? It seems to be a cipher, or a game of some kind. Real phonology is about understanding languages, and your gematria can't help with that - for instance, a phonologist cannot simply "treat vowel space as triangular rather than rectangular", because vowel space is not in fact triangular.

_________________
Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:47 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:05 pm
Posts: 387


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:23 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
no

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:23 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Posts: 707
Location: Three of them


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:23 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 1611

_________________
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:09 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Posts: 707
Location: Three of them


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:29 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm
Posts: 821
This all reminds me of that , which I shall paraphrase:

"Suppose the vowel space were modeled in a triangle instead of a rectangle."
"Okay. What would that imply?"
"I dunno."

_________________
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
– The Gospel of Thomas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:20 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:05 pm
Posts: 387
I thought some more about the geometry of this. It seems like what this gets you is a tetrahedral model. You can form it by slicing off the corner of a cube; the vowels can go on three faces composed of half-square triangles. The weird thing about this to me is that compared to a 2D model, the center will be more dense (I think -- correct me if I've made a mistake here).

Theories of vowels can be phonetically motivated (formant frequencies) or articulatory motivated (ATR, tongue "height" and "frontness," etc.) But I don't really see how your system is motivated. talks about a theory that sees vowel articulation as characterized by three main movements of the tongue, but it's a bit different from yours: the categories are "front," "raised," and "retracted"; the main difference from the usual descriptions being that back vowels are eliminated as a category. This theory seems to be more about articulation than about phonology, though.

The system is completely trilaterally symmetrical. One problem I see with this is that in many phonological systems, /i/ and /u/ seem to form a natural class that excludes /a/. The concept of "vowel height" isn't perfect for this either, since /ɨ/ seems to often pattern slightly differently from the other two. But I don't know that much about /ɨ/, and there are languages like Turkish where the four vowels /i u y ɨ/ all are part of the same group.

Analyzing vowel height as just being the opposite of "a-quality" doesn't quite work because the schwa (0,0,0) has no more a-quality than /u/ or /i/.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:56 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 364


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:16 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Posts: 707
Location: Three of them


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:11 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:02 pm
Posts: 779
Location: Brussels
Regardless of the discussion about whether or not this view meaningfully contributes to the understanding of vowel systems--

--Shouldn't [ə] be 222?

000 Isn't possible, as it would simultaneously be a high/front vowel (that is, 0 openness and 0 high/backness), an open vowel (that is, 0 high/frontness and 0 high/backness), and a high/back vowel (that is, 0 high/frontness and 0 openness).

Clearly, schwa cannot have a value of 0 for each of the three variables, because they 0 on one scale corresponds to 4 on one of the others.

- -

As for its usefulness: It divides the vowel space in pretty much the same way as we already do (in terms of open/close vs front/back), but adds a layer of complexity by encoding each value for no apparent reason. At the same time, it removes flexibility and it becomes less representative of the actual 'vowel space' in our mouths, as that space is continuous along both of the axes, rather than having 4 discrete points along 3 axes. Additionally, two of the axes (high/front and high/back) are essentially the same and should therefore be merged.

But it was still a fun mental exercise. There's nothing wrong with challenging a common view every now and then, even if it didn't lead us anywhere this time :)

_________________
— o noth sidiritt Tormiott


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:44 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea
A serious theory I've seen along these lines (though I do not have a reference offhand, sorry) similarly accepts only three main components of vowel timbre: I, A and U. However, instead of assigning values for each separately, it ends up positing that a vowel can have one or more secondary timbre in addition to its primary timbre. Thus for example while /i/ /a/ /u/ would be simply (I, -), (A, -) and (U, -), some of their combinations would be as follows:
/e/: (I, A)
/ɛ/: (A, I)
/y/: (U, I)
/o/: (U, A)
/ɔ/: (A, U)
Also possible are trinary combinations:
/ø/: (U, IA)
/œ/: (A, IU)
The source I saw was working mainly on the phonology of Finnish though, and ended up positing that U cannot be dominated by I, hence (I, U) and (I, AU) are not possible vowels. I have no idea if this could be made work for other languages by positing e.g. (I, U) as /ɨ/ and (I, AU) as /ɘ/ or /ɤ/.

Distinctions like English /i ɪ/ or /e ɛ æ/ would also seem to require adding a further variable such as tenseness.

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:23 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 364


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:34 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:14 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:42 am
Posts: 639
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland

_________________
vec


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:46 am 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:16 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Sweden


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:00 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:42 am
Posts: 639
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
Thanks! The book turns out to be in Iceland so I can't get to it now.

Was it Proto-Norse or Old Icelandic that went through a phase of no /o/?

_________________
vec


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:03 pm 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:16 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Sweden


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group