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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:12 pm 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:45 pm 
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Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:02 pm 
Sumerul
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Languages of althist Britain:
* Anglic language in southern Wales (Pembrish)
* Anglic language in Northumbria
* Romance language in most of England
* probably some unchanged Celtic languages

Should redo Pembrish diachronics. Are there any resources on Norman sound changes? Anglic Romance is obviously going to look a lot like Jerriais or somesuch -- probably have r > D around front vowels, r-metathesis, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:13 pm 
Sumerul
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I have decided that Rengni ought to have a thoroughly stupid chain shift, so:

j > z > d > l > h > 0 (but h > x / a_C, > f / [o u]_C; hC clusters are simplified to C in Amqoli, but maybe block syncope or something)

Presumably, z > D > d, which implies s > T. T > t word-initially when phonotactics allow and > f otherwise. ts dz then become s z, either before or after tS dZ become ts dz.

All hail our glorious leader Joseph Stalin.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:27 pm 
Sumerul
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e o > ɛ ɔ (this was probably already the case)

Diphthong loss:
wea wea: weo weo: > œ a: œ ø:
ea ea: > ɛ ja:
eo eo: > œ ø:
io io: > jɔ ju:
ie ie: > ɨ ɨː, sporadic merger of short ie into y esp. around labials

æ æ: æ(:)j > a ɛ: e(:)j
i > 0 / _jV
e: > wɨ:
wɨ: > ɨ: / [+lab]_ [+pal]_
wɨ: > u: / CCC_
tj sj > tʃ ʃ
ɨ > i / [+pal]_
ɔ o: > u ou: / _n(g)
a a: > ɔ ɔ: / _N EXCEPT _NV
a: ɛ: > æ: e:

m > n / _# in unstressed syllables

Length confusion:
V: > V / _C{:,C} ! _st{#,V}
V[+stress] > V: / sP θP nd ld rd
V[+stress] > V: > _(C)#
trisyllabic laxing
ɛ œ ɔ > e œ o
œ: > ɔ:

Front rounded vowel loss:
ø(:) y(:) > e(:) / _(n)g _h _l _r _w
ø(:) y(:) > e(:)w ɨ(:)w / _x(C)#
ø ø: y y: > e e:w i i:w / {t d s z tʃ ʃ n}_
ø(:) y(:) > ɘ(:) ɨ(:)

Vowels:
æ a e ɘ o i ɨ u
æ: a: ɛ: ɔ: e: ɘ: o: i: ɨ: u:

Numerals:
ɔːn twæː θrjuː feːwor fiːf siks sɔːvun exta njoːn tɨːn

More sound changes:

ɣ loss (NB: Rg nouns > Rv)
ɣ > 0 / #_ (sporadic), #g

ɣ > ə̯ / {l r}_#
ə̯ > v / [+round]+_ in monosyllables (i.e. when the vowel of the preceding syllable was round)
V[-diphthong]+ə̯ > Vj (i.e. ə̯ > j, which then metathesizes onto the end of the vowel of the preceding syllable if said vowel was a monophthong)
ə̯ > 0
ɣ > j / V[+front]_V VC_V[+front]
ɣ > w / V[-front]_V VC_V[-front]

Glide+vowel simplification:
V(:)vV V(:)wV > V(:)u / _C _#
V(:)jV > V(:)j / _C _#

L-vocalization:
al ol > au ou / _{C #}

I-mutation:
0 > j / V[-front]_+i
jV[-stress] > i / C_
j w > 0 / C_V[-stress]

X-breaking:
ɘ(:)x ɨ(:)x > e(:)w i(:)w
x > homorganic semivowel (ax > ai), ix ux > i: u:

---- SPELLING STANDARD COMES FROM THIS POINT ----

Numerals:
ɔːn twæː ðrjuː veːur viːf ziks sɔːun eixta njoːn tɨːn
oan twa thriw fewr fyf six soawn eighte nion tien

Diphthong simplification:
eu eu: iu iu: > jo(:) ju(:)
ou: > ɔu:
w > 0 / _u
j > 0 / _i

S-backing:
s > ʃ / _C

ɛ: ɔ: > eə oə / _[+stress]N
ɛi ɛ:i ɔu ɔ:u > ɛ ɛ: ɔ ɔ:
e o > ɛ ɔ

Disyllabic stress shift: 'CVCV > CV'CV. Sporadic when no final C, universal when final C. Attested more regularly in Yola, which showed (semi?)regular final stress — *after* vowel reduction. Doesn't happen if first C is a cluster or if first vowel is long.
Trisyllabic stress shift from initial to penultimate. Should be fairly regular but this might happen later.

Diphthong loss before r:
au ɔu > ɔ: o: / _r
Vj > Vjə / _r

Vowel reduction:
All short vowels in unstressed syllables > ǝ. All long vowels in unstressed syllables shorten. Diphthongs coalesce; will figure this out if I have to.

Length confusion:
Diphthongs lose contrastive vowel length.
Consonants lose length entirely. Voiceless fricatives now contrast with voiced.

w > 0 / C_V[+back]
v > w / _(C)#
jǝ ǝj > i

Numerals: oən twæ: θrju: fjo:r fi:f siks sɔ:n ɛtǝ njo:n t1:n

1600-2013:

Sporadic final loss of grammatical -n.

Yod loss:
j > 0 / V_{ŋ rk rg}
lj > j / C_

F[-voice] > F[+voice] / #_

ɛ ɛ: > i ɛi / _ŋ _[+pal]
ɛ > i / _nC

g > 0 / ŋ_
mb nd > m n n
nt > n / V[-stress]_

w > v / #_C

hw > f (welsh loans with xw should be borrowed as with hw so xw shouldn't occur)
dw kw > b f
hm hn hŋ hr hj > m n ŋ r j (hŋ shouldn't occur ever in the first place)
r > ʃ / _P[-voice]

Epenthesis:
0 > ə / C_{r l n} {l r}_{m v} ð_v (stolen verbatim from the Welsh rule)

sP > Ps / _# (sporadic, in many cases existing since before the OE-WE split)

Final vowels are lost and replaced with length.

Numerals:
oən twæ: θrju: fjo:r fi:f siks sɔ:n ɛ:t njo:n tɨ:n
oan twa thriu feur fyf six soaun eight nion tien

TODO: weird length shit like trisyllabic laxing and book-blood; mergers before l and r; more weird metathesis shit; h-dropping; th-dropping as Cardiff?; presumably some eventual English influence

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:51 am 
Smeric
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Ah, these are the Pembrish diachronics, right? I'll be interested to see how the language turns out.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:46 am 
Sumerul
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Diachronics applied to Lord's Prayer:

From the point of spelling standardization: (I forgot to add affix loss in e.g. 'hounen' > 'houn' to the diachronics, and ge- reduces to i-)

va:dər u:rə, ðu: ðwɨ: art un hɔ:unə,
zi: ði:n na:mə ihælvəd.
to: bəcu:mə ði:n ri:cə.
iwurdə ði:n willə
u:n erðə zwæ: zwæ: u:n hɔ:unə.
urnə idajhwamli:çə hlæ:f ze:lə u:s to:daj.
ɔ:nd vərjɨ:f u:s u:rə geltəs,
zwæ: zwæ: wɨ: vərjɨ:uþ u:rə geltəndə(s).
ɔ:nd nɛ ila:d ðu: u:s un cɔstnungə,
ac alɨ:s u:s ɔf ɨ:ulɛ.

Vader ure, thu thwie art un houne,
sy thyn name yhealved.
To becume thyn riche.
Ywurde thyn wille
un erthe suea suea un houne.
Urne ydayhuamliche hleaf sele us today.
Ond veryief us ure geltes,
Swea swea wie voryieuth ure geltendes.
Ond ne ilad thu us un costnunge,
ac alies us of yeule.

Presumably there would be some grammatical changes in there too, so:

Ure vader, thwie art un houne,
sy thyn name yhealved.

I have no idea how to handle the subjunctive.

Anyway: ('and' doesn't have O: > o@ so it doesn't merge with 'one' -- actually, no, the vowel shortens. and -e doesn't give vowel length after clusters)

va:dər u:r, ðu: ðwɨ: aʃt un hɔ:n,
zi: ði:n na:m ihælvd.
to: bəcu:m ði:n ri:c.
i.urd ði:n wil
u:n e:rð zwæ: zwæ: u:n hɔ:n.
urn dajliç læ:f ze:l u:s to:daj.
ɔn vərjɨ:f u:s u:r gelts,
zwæ: zwæ: wɨ: vərjɨ:uþ u:r geltəns.
ɔn n ila:d ðu: u:s un cɔʃtnuŋ,
ac alɨ:s u:s ɔf ɨul.

Vader ure, thu thwe ascht un houn,
Sy thyn name ihealved.
To becume thyn rych.
Yürd thyn will,
un erthe swea swea un houn.
Urn daylig leaf sele us today.
On veryief us ure gelts,
swea swea we veryiewth ure geltens.
On ne ylad thu us un coschtnung,
ac alies us of yewl.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:31 am 
Sumerul
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http://heinecke.pagesperso-orange.fr/li ... c/iccs.pdf

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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:20 pm 
Sumerul
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On Pembrish orthography:

<ie> is ugly, but <y> is needed for /j/ and /i:/. It would be possible to use <y> for /1/, but that would mean using yogh = <z> for /j/, which would mean not writing voicing distinctions in fricatives, which is probably fine. It would still be possible to use <y> in diphthongs, since it could have been treated as a variant of <i> and there are no diphthongs ending in /1/.

Fader ure, thu thwe art un hown,
Sie thine name ihealfed.
To becume thine rige.
Ziwurd thine will,
un erthe swea swea un hown.
Urn daylig hleaf sele us today.
On verzyf us ure gelts,
swea swea we verzywth ure geltens.
On ne zilad thu us un coschnung,
ac alys us of ywl.

The alternative is to preserve the palatalization alternation for <c g>.

Fader ure, thu thwe art un hown,
Sie thine name ihealfed.
To becume thine rice.
Gewurd thine will,
un erthe swea swea un hown.
Urn daylice hleaf sele us today.
On verzyf us ure ghelts,
swea swea we vergywth ure gheltens.
On ne gelaad thu us un coschnung,
ac alys us of ywl.

I prefer the first option.

The third option is Norse.

Fader ur, þu þvy art un hån,
si þin nam ihælfd.
To bekum þin riç.
Jeürd þin vill
un érð svæ svæ un hån.
Urn dailiç hlæf sel us todai.
On ferjyf us ur gelts,
svæ svæ vy ferjývð ur geltens.
On ne jelad þu us un kosjnung,
akk alys us of yvl.

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:07 pm 
Sumerul
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Russian has declension patterns where the stress shifts to the suffix. PK should too. Maybe these get analogized out in D.

But PK has two-way pitch accent, doesn't it? How does pitch accent usually interact with that sort of thing? (Does stress shift like that in Latvian?)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:39 am 
Avisaru
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are you really going to preserve swaswa? that seems a bit far-fetched


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:27 pm 
Sumerul
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no, as you can see from the lord's prayer TC thread, but i also ought to replace some more words etc. the development of 'eall swa' > 'also' > 'as' seems odd, so 'as' might not be a thing, but it'd prob just be 'swæ' there.

that reminds me, how does negation work in welsh

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:38 pm 
Sumerul
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d > D / _# before final schwa loss, why not
also killing vowel lengthening before C[V #] since there are too many long vowels otherwise

Briaed, butter, on grwyn çyse is good Penversch on good Vreas.
[briˈjæːð, bʊtər, ɔn grwɨːn tʃɨːz ɪz goːð pɛɱvərʃ ɔn goːð vreəs]

(would Frisian iə be borrowed as eə or ijə? anyway, the Frisian is something like [brɪə, buːtər ən griənə tsiːs ɪs guəd ɛŋəls ən guəd friəs])

and let's standardize the orthography:

æ a ɛ ʌ ɔ i ɨ u <ae a e ey o i y u>
æ: a: ɛ: ɔ: e: ɘ: o: i: ɨ: u: <ae a/aa ei ou e/ee ey o/oo i y w> (or silent <e> to mark length)
eə oə <ea oa>
ai au oi eu iu ɨw <ay aw oy ew iw yw> when _C

-d = D, -dt / -de = d

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:55 pm 
Sumerul
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A translation of the first Frisian text I could find:

Lonsend[0] stwyl, ysmidit i'd teyljucht ou time,
oa zeerd mi'n noum <idiom>
Asbran Vronkekljour, thurschig ou[1]'d schride
i reade ljucht, sa foll[2] veald is ourschriaemt mid Vronksch bloud

Ig zwere jow, aud[3] this[4] stwyl schel ig[5] beheeld[6] Vreasisch loan
Tiw on Thunner!
Mig[7] zeerd stel[8] ig to bejyme[9] the godts
Tiw on Thunner!

Vreasloan amoand his reicht mid taummers[10] i hoan[11]
etc.

[0] presumably initial gC clusters simplify
[1] ? -- need to figure out Welsh prepositions
[2] from Welsh 'holl'
[3] Welsh has different prepositions for 'by means of' and 'with'; 'by means of' (gydag > ag?) seems to be from 'all' + 'with'
[4] The alternative is 'thyse' < OE instr. thy:s.
[5] cf. Welsh word order?
[6] ...maybe I should have l-vocalization after e?
[7] an artifact of scribal times; would regularly read 'mi'
[8] probably a different word goes here
[9] assuming palatalization in 'begyman'
[10] a loan from Norman? cf. French 'tambour'; didn't Norman have a > au before nasals? if not, 'toammer'
[11] does Welsh use the definite article here?

lɔnsənd stwɨːl, jɪsmiðɪt ɪð tʌˈljuːt u tiːm
wə zeːrð mɪn nɔːm ---
ɑzbrɑn vrɔŋkəkljɔːr, ðʊrʃɪtʃ ʊð ʃriːd
i reəd ljuːt, zə fɔɬ veəld z ɔrʃriˈjæmt mɪð vrɔŋkʃ blɔːð

ɪtʃ zweːr jɔː, auð ðɪs stwɨːl ʃɛl tʃ bəheːld vreəzɪʃ loən
tiu ən ðʊnər
mi zeːrð stel tʃ tə biˈjɨːm ðə gɔdz
tiu ən ðʊnər

vreəzloən əmoənð hɪz rɛːt mɪð taumərz i hoən
etc.

_________________
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:46 pm 
Sumerul
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i should prob back this thing up at some point

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:01 am 
Sumerul
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Sestmag: [ˈsɛɕmɒ]

Inventory:

/p b t ts k/ <p b t ts k>
/f s ʂ ɕ/ <f s ṣ ś>
/w l ʑ e̯/ <w l ly e>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>

|θ ð ʁ| <v d g>

Given the phonological complexity of Sestmag, two more symbols are needed: /j/, representing the merger of /ʑ/ and /e̯/ in certain environments, and /h/, which is needed to describe lenition processes.

Vowels:
There are, in a sense, five phonemic vowels: /a e o i u/ <a e o i u>. There are, in another sense, seven vowels: /a ɒ e ə o i u/. However, [ɒ ə] can be analyzed as |aʁ oʁ|, and [e̯ɒ e̯ə wə] can be analyzed as |eʁ iʁ uʁ|. Cf. Khroskyabs. |ʁ| can only appear as a final: the sequence |kaʁa| is syllabified |kaʁ.a|, and realized (pre-syncope) as [kəa].

There is historical length. It is now mostly relevant to syncope and vowel reduction: long vowels do not reduce and behave as if they were stressed for the purposes of syncope.

In unstressed short syllables, /a ɒ e ə o i u/ reduce to [ə ɒ i ə ə i u], but unstressed /e/ is realized as [ɛ] when it bears post-syncope secondary stress.

Consonants:
/t n/ are flapped intervocalically. Flapped /n/ nasalizes the preceding vowel.

The three archiphonemes <v d g> behave as follows:

<v> is realized as [t] prevocalically and [f] otherwise.
<d> is realized as [ɦ] word-initially before a vowel, [0] intervocalically, and [v] word-finally. After a consonant, it triggers voicing and drops. Before a voiceless consonant, it devoices to <v>; before a voiced consonant, it merges with /v/.
<g> cannot appear in the onset of a pre-syncope syllable. Before or after a consonant, it has various complicated effects, which apply *before* its vowel effects: for example, |eʁn| is [eŋ], not [e̯ɒŋ]. It lowers and rounds vowels: <ag eg og ig ug> [ɒ jɒ ə jə wə].

Consonant clusters frequently resolve in unusual ways. For example: ðtnj > vdɲ > vɲɲ > vɲ̥ > fɲ̥, ʁnl > ŋl > nd, wnstɲ > wnɕɲ > ɴwɲɲ > ɴwɲ̥ > ɴfɲ̥. Note that geminates regularly devoice. (It's really preaspiration.)

Consonant processes:

Palatalization: This occurs when [j e̯] (including from |eʁ iʁ|) directly follow a consonant (in which case the glide is absorbed) or when a consonant directly precedes /e i/ across a morpheme boundary.
p b t ts k > pɕ bʑ ts tɕ ɕ
f s ʂ ɕ > fɕ ʂ ʂ ɕ
w l ʑ e̯ > wj ʑ ʑ ʑ
m n ɲ ŋ > (m)ɲ ɲ ɲ ɲ
Interdentals do something or other TODO. ʁ blocks palatalization.

Lenition: This is, predictably, triggered by prepositions.

Rendaku: (steal lyman's law for *voiced plosives?)

Preaspiration:

_________________
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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:19 pm 
Sumerul
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Vstsegnloeag ko ga eu iimtun vunst nyagii salyavk ev meant.
[fsɛndəˈe̯ɒ kiw ĩˈʑdũ t̪ũfɲɒˈiʑ səˈʑafk əf ɲãɾə]
θ-s-tse-ʁ-n-lo-yak-a k=ga=yu ii-matuna θunst=nyagii s-ʁ-lyaθak θ=myan=at
NAT.A-ANIM.SG.P-thing-DITR-AUG-IPFV-give-TR.ACT INAN.PL=BEN=ANIM.POSS-NONF-nurture number=lacking ANIM.SG.P=COLL-man NAT-heaven=TOP

Dotseewncnyagṣ ugna.
[ɦəˈtsɛfɲɒʂ ʔwəˈŋa]
d-o-tse-:ut-n-yak-a-ʂ ʔu-ʁna
ANIM.SG.A-NAT.P-thing-RECIP-DITR-IPFV-give-TR.ACT-NEG NAT.P=NEG

Sdugtu. x7
[zwəˈɾu]
s-0-dug-tuu
ANIM.SG.P-PFV-kill-TR.IMP

_________________
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:18 pm 
Sumerul
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Proto-Indo-Paleosiberian

ḱ ǵ ǵh > k g gh
Kw > Kʷ
bh dh gh gwh > β ð ɣ ɣʷ
BH > Ph
b d g gw > ph th kh kwh > ɸ θ x xʷ

sr > ðr
tl dl > xt nd

h₁ > h / #_
h₁e h₂e h₃e > e a o
eh₁ eh₂ eh₃ > ē ā ō
H > ə between obstruents
h₁ > ʔ / _C
VH > V:
Hw Hy > ɸ ʂ

s > ʂ / [r u K i]_
s(t)r > ʂ
kt > xt
rx xr > ʂ
m̩ n̩ > mə nə
w > ɣʷ
Cʷ > C / _C
VNC > V~C

áɣʷey ʂosméy ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hést, só hékʷǫs θeʂt. só xʷr̥ų́ ɣʷóɣʷǫ ɣʷeɣeθ; só méxmə βórǫ; só ðɣémǫmə ṓku βereð. óɣʷis hékʷoyβyos ɣʷeɣkeθ: “ðɣémǫmə spékyō: hékʷǫs-kʷe áxeti, kḗr moy aɣnutor”. hékʷōs tu ɣʷeɣkǫθ: “kluðí, oɣʷey! tóð spékyomes, nəsméy aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣémō, pótis, sē áɣʷyes ɸl̥ʔnā́ ɣʷérmǫ ɣʷéʂǫ ɣʷept, áɣʷiβyos tu ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hesti. tóθ kekluɣʷṓs óɣʷis aʂǫ́ βuxeθ.

x xʷ > 0/: ɸ
l̩ r̩ > li ri
e i > yə (but e > ə after interdentals and velars)
y > 0 / r_ Cʷ_
sy ty hy > ɕ tɕ ɕ
ti > tɕi
Cʷ > C / _V[+round] V[+round]_
k > q > ʔ / [a o ā l r]_ (incl. nasal variants)
ã ẽ õ ĩ ũ > ə e ə e o
ey oy əy > i
Vs > V: / _C
aʂ eʂ əʂ oʂ iʂ uʂ > ā ā ā ā ē ō
#s > 0 / _C
pC > ɸC
ɣʷy > :y
(writing ɣʷ as w)
stressed short a > e
epenthetic β or y to break up hiatus between /i u/ and other vowels

éwi ʂōmí ɸliʔnā́ nyə ɕə̄t, só ɕəʔə̄ θāt. só ɸrəo ɣóɣə wəɣəθ; só mḗmə βórə; só ðɣəməmə ṓku βyərəð. ṓyə̄ héʔiβyō wəɣkəθ: “ðɣəməmə pyəkyō: ɕəʔə̄-kʷə áyətɕi, kḗr mi aɣnutor”. ɕəkō tu wəɣʔəθ: “ʔluðí, owi! tóð pyəkyomyə̄, nə̄myi aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣémō, pótɕī, sē ā́yə̄ ɸliʔnā́ wərmə wəʂə wəɸt, éwəβyō tu ɸliʔnā́ nyə ɕə̄tɕi. tóθ kəʔluwṓ ṓyə̄ aʂə βūβeθ.

------

Indo-Japonic:

θ > t
t > tsə / _#
Cʷə(:) > Ca(:)
ə ə̄ > u ū
o > u / _#
ɣʷe(:) ɣʷi(:) > o(:) u(:)
VC[-voice] VC[+voice] > V V: / _C
l > r
stress is lost
eu uo > yo ū
ʂ > x > h
Fr > t
s > ɕ / _i
ʔ > 0
β > p / #_
p > h
V > P / #_, else b
ðɣ > d
e > ya / #_

Yo hōmi shinā nyu shūtsu, so shū tātsu. So chū kogu kagutsu; so mēmu horu; so dumama ōku hyurū. Ōyū heibyō kākutsu: "Dumama hyukyō: shū-ka yayuchi, kē mi ānutō." Shukō tu kāutsu: "Ruji, ou! Tō hyukyomyū, nūmi ānutō kē: demō, hochī, sē āyū chinā kāma kafu katsu, yagabyō tsu chinā nyu shūchi. To kuruō ōyū afu fūbe.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:37 pm 
Sumerul
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éwi ʂōmí ɸliqnā́ nyə ɕə̄st, só ɕəqə̄ θāʂt. só ɸrəo ɣóɣə wəɣəθ; só mḗxmə βórə; só ðɣəməmə ṓku βyərəð. ṓyə̄ héqiβyō wəɣkəθ: “ðɣəməmə pyəkyō: ɕəqə̄-kʷə áyətɕi, kḗr mi aɣnutor”. ɕəkō tu wəɣqəθ: “qluðí, owi! tóð spyəkyomyə̄, nə̄smyi aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣémō, pótɕī, sē ā́yə̄ ɸliʔnā́ wərmə wəʂə wəɸt, éwəβyō tu ɸliʔnā́ nyə ɕə̄stɕi. tóθ kəqluwṓ ṓyə̄ aʂə βūβeθ.

(Preserving sC xC clusters with only allophonic lengthening.)

Indo-Korean:

vowel hiatus resolution
ə ə̄ > eu eo
ɕ > hy
é é: > yae ye
wə(:) > wae(:)
ā > ya
fricatives reharden to plosives; voiced or voiceless
initial plosive clusters > tense consonants
ʂ > ch
q > k
ṓ > wi, yṓ > yu
yeu weo > yeo we
Korean cluster assimilation rules
final short vowels (or long schwa) are lost, as are the middle V of VCVCV sequences
length is lost

Yaewi chomi ppingna nyeo hyeot, so hyeok chat. So ppeo gok wegeut, so myekmeu bol, so tteumeum wik byeureut. Wiyeo hyaekbyu waekkeut: "Tteumeum pyeokyu, syeokeo-kwae ayeot, kyael mi aknutol.

i don't know what korean looks like

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:44 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:25 pm 
Sumerul
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h1esmi/h1sm̥i h1esi h1esti h1swos h1stes h1stes h1sm̥os h1ste h1senti

ɕ loss has a fronting effect: aɕ eɕ əɕ oɕ iɕ uɕ > e: e: e: o: i: u:
final Cs > C[-voice]
in VC[-voice] VC[+voice] > V V: / _C, Cʷ rounds a preceding vowel somehow
hy shouldn't palatalize
y > 0 / _e _i
Cs# takes epenthetic schwa
long nasal vowels just denasalize
ə > o / _C[velar]

hyūmyu/ūmi - ūgō ---- ūmūsu
hyāyu ---------- ēchū -- ēchu
hēchu ---------- ēchū -- ūshechu
(there's some irregular hiatus loss here)

if h1C gives ?C instead of @C:
mi ------ gō ---- mūsu
hyāyu - chū -- chu
hēchu - chū -- shechu

1DU: ordering of VH > V: vs Hw > ɸ
PIP: βu~: βo: βu:t βu:ɣə/βu:ɸyə βu:tə βu:ta: βu:myə βu:tɕə βu:eð

fū ------ fūgu/fūhyu - fūmyu
hō ----- fūtu ----------- fūchu
fūtsu - fūtā ----------- fūō

but presumably *bhuh2- won't replace any of the present tense

where does the infinitive come from? from -tey-mn̥; cf. slavic for -tey and greek for -mn̥. in early PIP this gives -teymnə; this is reduced to -temnə and later (in IJ?) to -tem > -tẽ > te.
*bhuh2-tey-mn̥ > βu:-tem(nə) > βu:tẽ > fūte
the regular alternative is *h1es-tey-mn / *h1s-tey-mn; these give:
*h1es-tey-mn̥ > he:-tem(nə) > hyə:tẽ > hyūte

I don't like either of these. I could derive it from *(s)ke(k/g)- 'run, jump, move' > 'happen', which gives:
*skek-tey-mn̥ > skyək-tem(nə) > kyute
I don't like all these /u/s, maybe short ə should > o, at least before /k/. kyote

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:29 pm 
Sumerul
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Proto-Indo-Paleosiberian

ḱ ǵ ǵh > k g gh
Kw > Kʷ
bh dh gh gwh > β ð ɣ ɣʷ
BH > Ph
b d g gw > ph th kh kwh > ɸ θ x xʷ

sr > ðr
tl dl > xt nð
nð > n(n)

h₁ > h / #_
h₁e h₂e h₃e > e a o
eh₁ eh₂ eh₃ > ē ā ō
H > ə between obstruents (but not word-initially!)
h₁ > ʔ / _C
VH > V:
Hw Hy > ɸ ʂ

s > ʂ / [r u K i]_
s(t)r > ʂ
kt > xt
rx xr > ʂ
m̩ n̩ > mə nə
w > ɣʷ
Cʷ > C / _C
VNC > V~C

áɣʷey ʂosméy ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hést, só hékʷǫs θeʂt. só xʷr̥ų́ ɣʷóɣʷǫ ɣʷeɣeθ; só méxmə βórǫ; só ðɣémǫmə ṓku βereð. óɣʷis hékʷoyβyos ɣʷeɣkeθ: “ðɣémǫmə spékyō: hékʷǫs-kʷe áxeti, kḗr moy aɣnutor”. hékʷōs tu ɣʷeɣkǫθ: “kluðí, oɣʷey! tóð spékyomes, nəsméy aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣémō, pótis, sē áɣʷyes ɸl̥ʔnā́ ɣʷérmǫ ɣʷéʂǫ ɣʷept, áɣʷiβyos tu ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hesti. tóθ kekluɣʷṓs óɣʷis aʂǫ́ βuxeθ.

x xʷ > 0/: ɸ
l̩ r̩ > li ri
e i > yə (but e > ə after interdentals and velars)
y > 0 / r_ Cʷ_
sy ty hy > ɕ tɕ ɕ
ti > tɕi
Cʷ > C / _V[+round] V[+round]_
k > q > ʔ / [a o ā l r]_ (incl. nasal variants)
ã ẽ õ ĩ ũ > ə e ə e o
V~: > V:
ey oy əy > i
pC > ɸC
ɣʷy > :y
(writing ɣʷ as w)
epenthetic β or y to break up hiatus between /i u/ and other vowels


------

Indo-Japonic:

#s > 0 / _C
C[+voice]S > C[-voice] / _#
Vs > V: / _C
aʂ eʂ əʂ oʂ iʂ uʂ > ā ā ā ā ē ō
aɕ eɕ əɕ oɕ iɕ uɕ > e: e: e: o: i: u:
stressed short a > e

y > 0 / _e _i

θ > t
t > tsə / _#
Cʷə(:) > Ca(:)
ə > o / _C[velar]
ə ə̄ > u ū
o > u / _#
ɣʷe(:) ɣʷi(:) > o(:) u(:)
VC[-voice] VC[+voice] > V V: / _C
l > r
stress is lost
eu uo > yo ū
ʂ > x > h
Fr > t
s > ɕ / _i
ʔ > 0
β > p / #_
p > h
V > P / #_, else b
ðɣ > d
e > ya / #_

_________________
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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:05 am 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:39 am 
Sumerul
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03:54 <@vlad> nort: palatalized consonants and long vowels are rare in native words and mostly found in chinese loans
03:55 <@vlad> ē ō ū are common in chinese words but ī only occurs over morpheme boundaries and ā only occurs in kinship terms
03:57 <@vlad> they're mostly restricted to morpheme boundaries
03:58 <@vlad> although colloquial words have long consonants for no reason

ḱ ǵ ǵh > k g gh
Kw > Kʷ
bh dh gh gwh > β ð ɣ ɣʷ
BH > Ph
b d g gw > ph th kh kwh > ɸ θ x xʷ

sr > ðr
tl dl > xt nð
nð > n(n)

h₁ > h / #_
h₁e h₂e h₃e > e a o
eh₁ eh₂ eh₃ > ē ā ō
H > ə between obstruents (but not word-initially!)
h₁ > ʔ / _C
VH > V:
Hw Hy > ɸ ʂ

s > ʂ / [r u K i]_
s(t)r > ʂ
kt > xt
rx xr > ʂ
m̩ n̩ > mə nə
w > ɣʷ
Cʷ > C / _C
VNC > V~C

áɣʷey ʂosméy ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hést, só hékʷǫs θeʂt. só xʷr̥ų́ ɣʷóɣʷǫ ɣʷeɣeθ; só méxmə βórǫ; só ðɣémǫmə ṓku βereð. óɣʷis hékʷoyβyos ɣʷeɣkeθ: “ðɣémǫmə spékyō: hékʷǫs-kʷe áxeti, kḗr moy aɣnutor”. hékʷōs tu ɣʷeɣkǫθ: “kluðí, oɣʷey! tóð spékyomes, nəsméy aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣémō, pótis, sē áɣʷyes ɸl̥ʔnā́ ɣʷérmǫ ɣʷéʂǫ ɣʷept, áɣʷiβyos tu ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hesti. tóθ kekluɣʷṓs óɣʷis aʂǫ́ βuxeθ.

xʷ > ɸ
x > y / V_[C[-velar] #]
uy > oy
x > : / V_[C[+velar]]
x > h

áɣʷey ʂosméy ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hést, só hékʷǫs θeʂt. só ɸr̥ų́ ɣʷóɣʷǫ ɣʷeɣeθ; só méymə βórǫ; só ðɣémǫmə ṓku βereð. óɣʷis hékʷoyβyos ɣʷeɣkeθ: “ðɣémǫmə spékyō: hékʷǫs-kʷe áheti, kḗr moy aɣnutor”. hékʷōs tu ɣʷeɣkǫθ: “kluðí, oɣʷey! tóð spékyomes, nəsméy aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣémō, pótis, sē áɣʷyes ɸl̥ʔnā́ ɣʷérmǫ ɣʷéʂǫ ɣʷept, áɣʷiβyos tu ɸl̥ʔnā́ né hesti. tóθ kekluɣʷṓs óɣʷis aʂǫ́ βuheθ.

ā > ō / r_#
l̩ r̩ > l r / _V V_
l̩ r̩ > lə rə
y > 0 / ɣʷ_
e(:) > a(:) / ɣʷ_
é > á / ɣ_
e > ə / _y
é > yə
F[+voice] > F[-voice] / #_V

áɣʷay ʂosmə́y ɸləʔnā́ nyə́ hyə́st, só hyə́kʷǫs θeʂt. só ɸrų́ xʷóɣʷǫ xʷaɣeθ; só mə́ymə ɸórǫ; só ðɣyə́mǫmə ṓku ɸereð. óɣʷis hyə́kʷoyβyos xʷaɣkeθ: “ðɣyə́mǫmə spyə́kyō: hyə́kʷǫs-kʷe áheti, kḗr moy aɣnutor”. hyə́kʷōs tu xʷáɣkǫθ: “kluðí, oɣʷay! tóð spyə́kyomes, nəsmə́y aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣyə́mō, pótis, sē áɣʷas ɸləʔnā́ xʷármǫ xʷáʂǫ xʷápt, áɣʷiβyos tu ɸl̥ʔnā́ nyə́ hesti. tóθ kekluɣʷṓs óɣʷis aʂǫ́ ɸuheθ.

s > : / V_[C #]
θ > t
aʂ eʂ oʂ iʂ əʂ uʂ > a: ə: o: e: ə: u:
ŏ[-stress] > a

áɣʷay ʂōmə́y ɸyəʔnā́ nyə́ hyə̄́t, só hyə́kʷǭ t@:t. só ɸr̥ų́ xʷóɣʷǫ xʷaɣet; só mə́ymə ɸórǫ; só ðɣyə́mǫmə ṓku ɸereð. óɣʷī hyə́kʷoyβyō xʷaɣket: “ðɣyə́mǫmə spyə́kyō: hyə́kʷǭ-kʷe áheti, kḗr moy aɣnutor”. hyə́kʷō tu xʷáɣkǫt: “kluðí, oɣʷay! tóð spyə́kyomē, nə̄mə́y aɣnutór kḗr: ðɣyə́mō, pótī, sē áɣʷā ɸyəʔnā́ xʷármǫ xʷáʂǫ xʷápt, áɣʷiβyō tu ɸyəʔnā́ nyə́ hyəti. tót kekyuɣʷṓ óɣʷī aʂǫ́ ɸuhet.

i: u: > əy əw
ə > 0 / C[+voice]_# in polysyllables when unstressed
0 > ə / P[-voice]_# EXCEPT p
length is lost
n > 0 / #y_
y > 0 / r_
l > y / C_
l > d

áɣʷay ʂomə́y ɸyəʔná yə́ hyə̄́tə, só hyə́kʷǫ t@:t. só ɸrų́ xʷóɣʷǫ xʷaɣetə; só mə́ym ɸórǫ; só ðɣyə́mǫm óku ɸereð. óɣʷ@y hyə́kʷoyβyo xʷaɣketə: “ðɣyə́mǫm spyə́kyo: hyə́kʷǫ-kʷe áheti, kḗr moy aɣnutor”. hyə́kʷo tu xʷáɣkǫtə: “kyuðí, oɣʷay! tóð spyə́kyome, namə́y aɣnutór kér: ðɣyə́mo, pótəy, se áɣʷa ɸyəʔná xʷármǫ xʷáʂǫ xʷáptə, áɣʷiβyo tu ɸyəʔná yə́ hyəti. tótə kekyuɣʷí óɣʷī aʂǫ́ ɸuhetə.

ã ẽ õ ĩ ə̃ ũ > ə i u ə i u
ã: ẽ: õ: ĩ: ə̃: ũ: > a e o əy ə əw
əy > oy > o:
ay > e:
əw > u:
ə > u / Cʷ_ _Cʷ
Cɣʷə > Cɣa
ɣy > y / EXCEPT _V[+stress]
yəɣ(ʷ)C > yuGC; this sometimes produces length and sometimes doesn't (maybe only in stressed syllables in roots?); however, this doesn't apply if C = y.
yə yə̄ yə́ yə̄́ > i e e ya (but the word "yə́" > "ya")
ə > u
Cʷ > C / V[+round]_ _V[+round]
ð > : / V_[C #]

áɣʷe ʂomó: ɸiʔná yá hyatu, só hyúku tūt. só ɸru xóɣu xʷaɣetu; só mó:m ɸóru; só ðɣémum óku ɸerē. óɣō hyúkōβyo xʷaɣketu: “ðɣémum spékyo: hyúku-kʷe áheti, ker mō aɣnutor”. hyúko tu xʷáɣkutə: “kyuðí, oɣe! tō spekyome, namó̄ aɣnutór kér: ðɣemo, pótó:, se áɣʷa ɸiʔná xʷármu xʷáʂu xʷáptu, áɣʷiβyo tu ɸiʔná ya heti. tótu kekyuɣí óɣī aʂú ɸuhetu.

s > 0 / _C
ðɣ > ð
β ð ɣ ɣʷ > b d g w
we > o
w > 0 / EXCEPT _a
xʷ > kʷ > k UNLESS _Vk; in that case > h
x > k / _u
Cʷ > C
ʂ > s / #_
ʂ > sy / V[+front]_a
ʂ > x
x > h
p > ɸ
ɸ > h / EXCEPT _u
ʔ > 0
m > n / _# in monosyllables or stressed syllables, otherwise 0
ag egC > egC igC
tr dr > t d / C_
C > 0 / _C
stress is lost

h t s allophony as in Japanese

ao somō hina ya hyatsu, so hyúku tūtsu. so ru hogu kagetsu; so mōn horu; so demun oku herē. ogī hyukōbyo haketsu: “demum hekyo: hyuku-ke ahechi, ke mō anuto”. hyuko tsu hakutsu: “kyuji, oge! tō hekyome, namō anuto ke: demo, hotō, se awa hina kámu káfu kátsu, aibyo tsu hina ya hechi." totsu kekyugi ogi afú fuhetsu.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Last edited by Nortaneous on Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:11 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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