Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I was wondering if the [tʃwV] and [tɕjV] clusters are possible to exist. They'd have to be one single syllable, V standing for whatever vowel. It seems weird to me that [w, j] would remain (at least as actual approximants), but at the same time I can't come up with an organic rule or anything else that would prohibit it.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I don't see why tʃw couldn't exist. It's a heterorganic cluster. t̜ɕj is a little odd, but I think I can pronounce it.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Mandarin almost fits the bill, having [ʈʂw] and [tɕj], as in 莊稼人 zhuāngjiarén 'farmer', pronounced [ʈʂwɑŋ˥ tɕja˧ ʐən˧˥].youkai01 wrote:I was wondering if the [tʃwV] and [tɕjV] clusters are possible to exist. They'd have to be one single syllable, V standing for whatever vowel. It seems weird to me that [w, j] would remain (at least as actual approximants), but at the same time I can't come up with an organic rule or anything else that would prohibit it.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
They are entirely unremarkable and definitely possible.
For forbidding them, that's easy. /j/ drops after palatals, or /tɕ/ only formed by assimilating and absorbing /j/ in the first place (Japanese tjV>tɕV) so as to preclude any possible clustering in the first place. And coronal+/w/ > labial/labiodental is possible, e.g. Northwestern Mandarin where /tʂw tʂʰw ʂw ɻw/ > /pf pfʰ f v/.
EDIT: I'm a native English speaker, really
For forbidding them, that's easy. /j/ drops after palatals, or /tɕ/ only formed by assimilating and absorbing /j/ in the first place (Japanese tjV>tɕV) so as to preclude any possible clustering in the first place. And coronal+/w/ > labial/labiodental is possible, e.g. Northwestern Mandarin where /tʂw tʂʰw ʂw ɻw/ > /pf pfʰ f v/.
EDIT: I'm a native English speaker, really
Last edited by vokzhen on Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Why?youkai01 wrote:I was wondering if the [tʃwV] and [tɕjV] clusters are possible to exist. They'd have to be one single syllable, V standing for whatever vowel. It seems weird to me that [w, j] would remain (at least as actual approximants)
As Serafín pointed out, Mandarin has [tɕj], and in Swahili, [tʃwa] is a verb stem in and of itself meaning 'to set' (referring to the sun. The opposite, 'to rise', is [tʃa]).
EDIT: There are probably even speakers of Taiwanese Mandarin who have both [tʃw] (instead of [ʈʂw]) and [tɕj].
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
In my opinion, the presence or absence of a yod between tɕ and another vowel is merely stylistic in phonetic transliteration and represents the same sound, for example, :
Here's Mandarin [t͡ɕi̯a] from Forvo:
http://forvo.com/search/掐/
And Japanese [t͡ɕa]:
http://forvo.com/search/茶/
The two words are both high leveled to minimize interference from tones.
Okay phpBB hates url with non ASCII characters, please copy-paste the link.
Here's Mandarin [t͡ɕi̯a] from Forvo:
http://forvo.com/search/掐/
And Japanese [t͡ɕa]:
http://forvo.com/search/茶/
The two words are both high leveled to minimize interference from tones.
Okay phpBB hates url with non ASCII characters, please copy-paste the link.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Russian contrasts /t͡ɕ/ and /t͡ɕj/, apparently: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18712
I don't really know what's up with Russian /j/ phonetically though, since that language is supposed to generally contrast /CʲV/, /CʲjV/ and /CjV/.
I don't really know what's up with Russian /j/ phonetically though, since that language is supposed to generally contrast /CʲV/, /CʲjV/ and /CjV/.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
what, noM Mira wrote:In my opinion, the presence or absence of a yod between tɕ and another vowel is merely stylistic in phonetic transliteration and represents the same sound, for example, :
Here's Mandarin [t͡ɕi̯a] from Forvo:
http://forvo.com/search/掐/
And Japanese [t͡ɕa]:
http://forvo.com/search/茶/
The two words are both high leveled to minimize interference from tones.
Okay phpBB hates url with non ASCII characters, please copy-paste the link.
You've picked two languages that only have alveolo-palatals before either a yod or a high front vowel, so this fails to work.
As a possible counterexample, consider somebody pronouncing 去 as [ts\_hjy_F] -- there is a recognizable difference to the normal pronunciation, and I reckon it would sound weird to most native Mandarin speakers.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Um, there's no yod nor a high front vowel in [t͡ɕa] <cha>? That's how everyone transcribe that Japanese phone, no yod, no high front vowel.Hallow XIII wrote:what, noM Mira wrote:In my opinion, the presence or absence of a yod between tɕ and another vowel is merely stylistic in phonetic transliteration and represents the same sound, for example, :
Here's Mandarin [t͡ɕi̯a] from Forvo:
http://forvo.com/search/掐/
And Japanese [t͡ɕa]:
http://forvo.com/search/茶/
The two words are both high leveled to minimize interference from tones.
Okay phpBB hates url with non ASCII characters, please copy-paste the link.
You've picked two languages that only have alveolo-palatals before either a yod or a high front vowel, so this fails to work.
As a possible counterexample, consider somebody pronouncing 去 as [ts\_hjy_F] -- there is a recognizable difference to the normal pronunciation, and I reckon it would sound weird to most native Mandarin speakers.
And the example of 去 is due to the intruding yod interrupting the labialization of /t͡ɕ/ before /y/, which is implied and mandatory in Mandarin, but not necessary in other languages.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
You can analyze Japanese either as having a series of palatalized consonants or syllable-initial Cj clusters. In the first case <ch> is the phonetic realization of /tʲ/, in the second case it is an allophone of t before j or i. In both cases the affrication is incidental, and the dominant feature is [+palatal], which is hardly a good environment to attempt to find palatality distinctions in your affricates in.
Even apart from that, the idea that you can prove with just two examples, which are areally close, the impossibility of a distinction between /ts\/ and /ts\j/, which is itself premised on the fact that notation accurately reflects all facts about the phonology and phonetics of your examples, is spectacularly unsound on all possible criteria. Pls go back to the drawing board.
Even apart from that, the idea that you can prove with just two examples, which are areally close, the impossibility of a distinction between /ts\/ and /ts\j/, which is itself premised on the fact that notation accurately reflects all facts about the phonology and phonetics of your examples, is spectacularly unsound on all possible criteria. Pls go back to the drawing board.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
how are russian чьё and чья pronounced
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Wonky spelling aside, I'm pretty sure they're just [tɕjɵ] and [tɕja] respectively.Nortaneous wrote:how are russian чьё and чья pronounced
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Really, Russian has [ɵ]?? Weird, it just sounds like [o] to me.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I'm going off stuff I've read here. The Russian I've heard personally doesn't seem to noticeably front /o/ next to palatal(ized) segments, but reportedly it does for some speakers and (according to some sources) in the standard accent.Vijay wrote:Really, Russian has [ɵ]?? Weird, it just sounds like [o] to me.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I don't think so. As I understand it, /j/ in Russian usually does not occur after consonants. When it does, it seems like this is generally indicated by writing a soft sign (after a palatalized consonant) or a hard sign (after a non-palatalized consonant). In the Language Log post I linked to earlier, there is the following comment:Chengjiang wrote:Wonky spelling aside, I'm pretty sure they're just [tɕjɵ] and [tɕja] respectively.Nortaneous wrote:how are russian чьё and чья pronounced
But as I said earlier, I'm also not sure what how the phonemic distinction in Russian between /CʲV/ and /CʲjV/ is realized phonetically. For all I know, the former is [CʲjV], and there's an epenthetic vowel or something in the latter.Russian has чих /tɕix/ "sneeze" vs. чьих /tɕjix/ "whose.PL.GEN" – or, somewhat more seriously, чей /tɕej/ "whose.M.NOM" vs. чьей /tɕjej/ "whose.F.GEN" – as a kind-of minimal pair, but the cluster /tɕj/ isn't otherwise particularly common (and I can't think of any words starting with it that aren't forms of that pronoun).
Last edited by Sumelic on Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
But чьё and чья are forms of чей. Unless this person's saying that even those are actually pronounced without the [j], I don't understand your objection.Sumelic wrote:I don't think so. As I understand it, /j/ usually does not occur after a palatalized consonant inside a word. When it does, it seems like this is generally indicated by writing a soft sign after the consonant. In the Language Log post I linked to earlier, there is the following comment:Chengjiang wrote:Wonky spelling aside, I'm pretty sure they're just [tɕjɵ] and [tɕja] respectively.Nortaneous wrote:how are russian чьё and чья pronounced
Russian has чих /tɕix/ "sneeze" vs. чьих /tɕjix/ "whose.PL.GEN" – or, somewhat more seriously, чей /tɕej/ "whose.M.NOM" vs. чьей /tɕjej/ "whose.F.GEN" – as a kind-of minimal pair, but the cluster /tɕj/ isn't otherwise particularly common (and I can't think of any words starting with it that aren't forms of that pronoun).
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
No, I just completely missed the soft sign in their spelling and made a stupid post.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
CьjV is realized as a noticeable lengthening of the palatalized consonant with an off-glide. The j is quite clearly heard.
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I realize I'm late to this party, but there's a well-known language with [tʃwV] - American English! There's a sound change in progress where /tw/ clusters are being produced as [tʃw]. It's not very well documented, but if you listen out for it you'll notice it.
As for [tɕjV], there are some nice example already presented, and I don't see any a priori reason it shouldn't be possible. If [tɕi] is possible, then [tɕj] is possible too, since they're practically the same thing. (Don't let the symbols fool you!)
As for [tɕjV], there are some nice example already presented, and I don't see any a priori reason it shouldn't be possible. If [tɕi] is possible, then [tɕj] is possible too, since they're practically the same thing. (Don't let the symbols fool you!)
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Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I don't have this, but I do hear other people here in southeastern Wisconsin who do have this. (Note that when I do try to pronounce it it comes out as [tɕʰw], as the /w/ imparts palatalization onto preceding coronals.)Rory wrote:I realize I'm late to this party, but there's a well-known language with [tʃwV] - American English! There's a sound change in progress where /tw/ clusters are being produced as [tʃw]. It's not very well documented, but if you listen out for it you'll notice it.
(I particularly remember a particular local commercial here about a decade back where twenty was repeatedly pronounced as [tɕʰwʌ̃niː] with very noticeable affrication of the /t/.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Palatalized and dorso-palatal sounds are naturally followed by a short [j]-like glide when they are followed by a vowel other than , due to the fact that the back of the tongue is around the [j]-position during the articulation of the consonant and then has to move to the place of the vowel.
So it's hard for [tɕa] not to be something like [tɕja]. This glide may be shorter than a regular [j], though, so it's still possible to distinguish /tɕa/ and /tɕja/ based on timing, which seems to be what Russian does.
You can also start the movement away from the palatal position earlier to have a prepalatal(ized) consonant but it may not be that distinctive unless preceded by a vowel.
There's no reason why a language couldn't have [tʃwV], but [tʃ] seems to already be slightly labialized in English which might be why the original poster has trouble distinguishing it from [tʃw].
So it's hard for [tɕa] not to be something like [tɕja]. This glide may be shorter than a regular [j], though, so it's still possible to distinguish /tɕa/ and /tɕja/ based on timing, which seems to be what Russian does.
You can also start the movement away from the palatal position earlier to have a prepalatal(ized) consonant but it may not be that distinctive unless preceded by a vowel.
There's no reason why a language couldn't have [tʃwV], but [tʃ] seems to already be slightly labialized in English which might be why the original poster has trouble distinguishing it from [tʃw].
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I have that in rapid speech--except I think mine is more like [ts̱w]: twenty [ˈts̱wɐn(ː)i], in slower speech [ˈtwɐnti~ˈtwɛnti].Rory wrote:I realize I'm late to this party, but there's a well-known language with [tʃwV] - American English! There's a sound change in progress where /tw/ clusters are being produced as [tʃw]. It's not very well documented, but if you listen out for it you'll notice it.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
Nice! Was the [ɕ] sound noticeably different from the [ʃ] sound in shed or check?Travis B. wrote:(I particularly remember a particular local commercial here about a decade back where twenty was repeatedly pronounced as [tɕʰwʌ̃niː] with very noticeable affrication of the /t/.)Rory wrote:I realize I'm late to this party, but there's a well-known language with [tʃwV] - American English! There's a sound change in progress where /tw/ clusters are being produced as [tʃw]. It's not very well documented, but if you listen out for it you'll notice it.
Yes, that's another variant! Smith (2013) referred to these as the retracted and advanced variants, and found 6 retracted affricators (with [tʃw]) and two advanced affricators (with [tsw]) out of a sample of 107 people in the lab. (Note that you'd expect actual use in casual speech to be much higher - lab speech is usually quite hyperarticulated and people try to speak "properly".)Zaarin wrote:I have that in rapid speech--except I think mine is more like [ts̱w]: twenty [ˈts̱wɐn(ː)i], in slower speech [ˈtwɐnti~ˈtwɛnti].Rory wrote:I realize I'm late to this party, but there's a well-known language with [tʃwV] - American English! There's a sound change in progress where /tw/ clusters are being produced as [tʃw]. It's not very well documented, but if you listen out for it you'll notice it.
The man of science is perceiving and endowed with vision whereas he who is ignorant and neglectful of this development is blind. The investigating mind is attentive, alive; the mind callous and indifferent is deaf and dead. - 'Abdu'l-Bahá
Re: Existence of [tʃwV] and [tɕjV]
I am not sure of how to describe the audible difference between [tʃʰ] and [tɕʰ] except that the latter sounds "duller" and lower in pitch.Rory wrote:Nice! Was the [ɕ] sound noticeably different from the [ʃ] sound in shed or check?Travis B. wrote:(I particularly remember a particular local commercial here about a decade back where twenty was repeatedly pronounced as [tɕʰwʌ̃niː] with very noticeable affrication of the /t/.)Rory wrote:I realize I'm late to this party, but there's a well-known language with [tʃwV] - American English! There's a sound change in progress where /tw/ clusters are being produced as [tʃw]. It's not very well documented, but if you listen out for it you'll notice it.
Note that my dialect has generalized palatalization before /uː ʊ w ər/, and stressed, aspirated /t/ has a tendency to affricate before these (as well as unaspirated but unflapped /t/ in some words) in less careful speech. When I notice other people affricating it it tends to be [tɕʰ], but what I have is [tsʲʰ] for stressed, aspirated /t/ before /uː/ (e.g. [tsʲʰʉuː] for two) and [tɕ] for unstressed but unflapped before /ər/ (e.g. [ˈfɛʔktɕʁ̩ːʁiː] for factory).
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.