Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

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Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Duns Scotus »

Hello!

Awhile back I made a post about a tentative phonology for my forthcoming conlang, Fyrthir. For those who didn't see that thread, let me give a brief overview of what I'm trying to accomplish with Fyrthir. Basically, Fyrthir is an engelang with the soul of an artlang: it is a language I am designing to reproduce my aesthetic tastes, one of which is regularity. What I mean by this is that certain design choices I've made are things which would be unlikely to show up in a natlang, like an overly regular morphology (although I suppose not unheard of, like Quechua). However, inkeeping with the aforementioned "soul" of an artlang, I do very much desire to have a naturalistic sort of phonology, since as mentioned, aesthetics are a big part of the project. My favorite languages, phonologically, are the Germanic languages, especially the Scandinavian ones, so I have tried to emulate the sound systems of those (of course, with some differences). With that in mind, I've given some further thought over my vowel system in particular, and wanted to hear what you all think. My main concern here is that the system I've devised is overly complex. For what it's worth, I actually don't seem to have much issue saying the sounds accurately and repeatably. Anyway, here's a basic vowel chart to start off with:

Image

As you can see, I have twelve basic vowel qualities! Basically, the system here is supposed to be something of a compromise between Old English, Old Norse, and Modern Icelandic (however, /ɶ/ is not actually present in any of those three).

My concern here is basically whether the particular inventory of vowels makes sense. In particular, there are no central vowels. One thing that might seem strange is why there is the lone back unrounded vowel /ɑ/. The reason is that this seems to be common among Germanic languages: all three of the mentioned influences have a back open unrounded vowel without any rounded pair.

Next up, diphthongs! Like Icelandic, all of the phonemic diphthongs end in /i/, /ʏ/ or /u/. There are going to be either 4 or 5 phonemic diphthongs, I haven't decided yet how many, but they will be among this set: /æi/ /ei/ /œʏ/ /ɑu/ /ɔu/. Currently, I am leaning towards 4, but I can't decide which 4 of the 5.

Now, if it were just that, I suppose things might be somewhat understandable, but here is where the complexity sets in: Fyrthir has phonemic length. But that's not all, like Dinka, Fyrthir distinguishes between three lengths, rather than the usual two. Oh, and on top of that, the diphthongs exist in all three lengths. This brings us to a grand total of (12 + 4) * 3 = 48 different vowel phonemes!

On the subject of vowel length, such a system with no variation would be boring. In addition, I was really intrigued by Old English's set of wonderfully exotic height-harmonic diphthongs (that is, where the height doesn't change). However, I didn't really want to add them as phonemes, since I certainly have enough of those. So my idea was this: for extra long front unrounded vowels, the sound is actually realized as such a diphthong. That is /i::/ is [i::u], /ɪ::/ is [ɪ::u] (where is slightly lower here), /e::/ is [e::o], and then /æ::/ is [æ::ɑ].

Okay last thing, I promise! In Old Norse, each vowel had a corresponding nasalized variant, that occurred before a nasal consonant, or where a nasal consonant once was. The idea I had was to use this, but also introduce a system of nasal harmony. Any word with nasals in the root has the vowels of its grammatical endings nasalized as well. I'm not sure if this will sound right, but it's just an idea I had.

Alright, there's my vowel system. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
My conlang is Fyrthir.

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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by WeepingElf »

I see no problems with it.
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Frislander »

WeepingElf wrote:I see no problems with it.
Me neither: it resembles Finnish with an extra degree of height. I personally wouldn't have added the low front-rounded vowel, but if you want it there then that's your call. I'm also not concerned by the low-back unrounded vowel: aside from the Germanic case you mentioned, it also appears to be the quality of the low vowel in a Papuan five-vowel system.

As for the diphthongs, I'd personally drop the front-rounded one if going for 4.

Three vowel lengths? Wonderful! Three-way-length in diphthongs? Crazy, but yeah. For the extra-long allophony, I'd have the backed offglide be unrounded (e.g. /iːː/ realised as [iː̯ɯ], not [iː̯u])

If you want nasal harmony, go for it!
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Duns Scotus »

WeepingElf wrote:I see no problems with it.
Thanks! I appreciate that a lot!
Frislander wrote:Me neither: it resembles Finnish with an extra degree of height. I personally wouldn't have added the low front-rounded vowel, but if you want it there then that's your call. I'm also not concerned by the low-back unrounded vowel: aside from the Germanic case you mentioned, it also appears to be the quality of the low vowel in a Papuan five-vowel system.
So, the reason I included /ɶ/ is because of my conlang's morphology. Basically, there are four sets of vowel phonemes: the back vowels, the front unrounded vowels, and the front rounded vowels, and the diphthongs. Each vowel undergoes alterations in the stem for derivational morphology. So of course, I needed there to be 12 vowels for this to work.
Frislander wrote:As for the diphthongs, I'd personally drop the front-rounded one if going for 4.

Three vowel lengths? Wonderful! Three-way-length in diphthongs? Crazy, but yeah. For the extra-long allophony, I'd have the backed offglide be unrounded (e.g. /iːː/ realised as [iː̯ɯ], not [iː̯u])

If you want nasal harmony, go for it!
Cool, thanks for the encouragement. I just need to play with it to make sure everything works.

One thing I forgot to mention. Another idea I was toying with was a phonemic system of pitch accent (in the Japanese and/or Ancient Greek sense, not Swedish). Basically, any one mora per root can be accented.
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by mèþru »

No problem with it, except that the labels for the front rounded vowels seem off by one height level.
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Frislander »

duns_scotus wrote:
Frislander wrote:Me neither: it resembles Finnish with an extra degree of height. I personally wouldn't have added the low front-rounded vowel, but if you want it there then that's your call. I'm also not concerned by the low-back unrounded vowel: aside from the Germanic case you mentioned, it also appears to be the quality of the low vowel in a Papuan five-vowel system.
So, the reason I included /ɶ/ is because of my conlang's morphology. Basically, there are four sets of vowel phonemes: the back vowels, the front unrounded vowels, and the front rounded vowels, and the diphthongs. Each vowel undergoes alterations in the stem for derivational morphology. So of course, I needed there to be 12 vowels for this to work.
Not necessarily: derivation is probably the part of the language most prone to irregularity: if you don't want it then there's nothing wrong with merging it with something else, e.g. the low-front unrounded vowel.
Frislander wrote:As for the diphthongs, I'd personally drop the front-rounded one if going for 4.

Three vowel lengths? Wonderful! Three-way-length in diphthongs? Crazy, but yeah. For the extra-long allophony, I'd have the backed offglide be unrounded (e.g. /iːː/ realised as [iː̯ɯ], not [iː̯u])

If you want nasal harmony, go for it!
Cool, thanks for the encouragement. I just need to play with it to make sure everything works.

One thing I forgot to mention. Another idea I was toying with was a phonemic system of pitch accent (in the Japanese and/or Ancient Greek sense, not Swedish). Basically, any one mora per root can be accented.
Good! Just make sure you either have more than one kind of accent and/or accentless words to help differentiate it from stress.
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by mèþru »

All words must be stressed in stress systems? I thought certain classes of monosyllables are not stressed in certain languages, like prepositions. (I know what a clitic is, and I'm not referring to that.)
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Frislander »

mèþru wrote:All words must be stressed in stress systems? I thought certain classes of monosyllables are not stressed in certain languages, like prepositions. (I know what a clitic is, and I'm not referring to that.)
True, but I meant something more like polysyllabic lexemes lacking accent. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Soap »

/ɶ/ is in the IPA because various languages have it as an allophone of certain vowel phonemes, but no language is known to have a phonemic /ɶ/. I would at least consider making it just an allophone of some other sound, even if that other sound isn't rounded or differs in some other way from /ɶ/.
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by mèþru »

Here's the fixes for the phonology that I would make:

Original
ʏ
ø
œ
Change
y
ʏ
ø

ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Chagen »

Op, this is Danish's phonology (fuck you autocorrect Danish is a word):

Image

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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Duns Scotus »

Alright guys, so based on some of the points in the thread, I've made a new vowel chart:

Image

However, one thing I'm now concerned about: what kind of vowel allophony is realistic? I have the aforementioned diphthongization on extra-long vowels, and (possibly) a system of nasal harmony with nasal allophones. Is that enough? Or do real languages tend to have greater variation?
My conlang is Fyrthir.

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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by mèþru »

All sounds affect each other, sometimes to extremely slight degrees, and reproducing the exact same frequencies is improbable. Therefore, there is technically infinite amounts of allophony. Some languages, however, lack significant differences and are sometimes described as "lacking allophony". I know that Germanic languages tend to have tons of this king of significant allophony, but I don't know if this is true/typical of other large vowel inventory languages. Like vowel allophony, consonant allophony is also a common phenomenon to have/not have.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Fyrthir's Vowel System: Is this too insane?

Post by Duns Scotus »

mèþru wrote:All sounds affect each other, sometimes to extremely slight degrees, and reproducing the exact same frequencies is improbable. Therefore, there is technically infinite amounts of allophony. Some languages, however, lack significant differences and are sometimes described as "lacking allophony". I know that Germanic languages tend to have tons of this king of significant allophony, but I don't know if this is true/typical of other large vowel inventory languages. Like vowel allophony, consonant allophony is also a common phenomenon to have/not have.
Yeah, obviously there is trivially going to be allophony inasmuch as [ka] is just necessarily going to sound different than [na] or what have you. Consonant allophony I have more figured out, but vowel allophony is a bit more confusing to me. It seems there are nontrivial kinds of allophony, where a vowel is just pronounced differently more than just the sense in which it is necessarily conditioned by its environment.
My conlang is Fyrthir.

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