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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:03 am 
Smeric
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Now, instead of reading Moist's posts in the voice of Lewis Black, know read the posts in the voice of Jabba the Hutt.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:49 pm 
Sumerul
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fuck u yng

Albanian Celtic

Sound changes

Owis ekwoi-kwe. Owis, kwesjo wlānā ne est, ekwos spekét, oinom barúm woxom wéxontam, oinom-kwe megam borom oinom-kwe doniom āku berontam. Owis nu ékwobos weukwét: “Krid áxnutor mai, ekwos ágontom wīrom wídanti”.
oynos dwaw tri:s kʷetwares kʷinkʷe swexs sextam oxtu: nawan dekam

Proto-Celtic to Proto-Goidelic
au ou oi > ʉ:
ei > e:
ai > ɛː
a: > o:
eu > ʉ:

a > e / _${V[+front +high] j}

r > ɾ / C_
ɸ > 0
kw > p
w > gw / #_
s > 0 / #_{l m n}
sp sr sw > f fr xw
xt > θ
j > ð / _#

mb nd > mm nn
b d g m > v ð ɣ ṽ / V_V
p t k > b d g / V_V
pp tt kk > f θ x / V_V
p t k > f θ x / {l r}_

0 > h / V[-long]_ unless C[velar]_ or it's a particle
h > x

i u > e o / penultimate stressed syllables before -a(:)

Owis ebʉ:-gweh. Owis, pesjoh gwlo:no: ne-est, ebos fegét, ʉ:nom barúm gwoxom gwéxontam, ʉ:nom-gweh meɣam borom ʉ:nom-gweh doniom o:ɣuh berontam. Owis nuh ébovos gwa:bét: “Krid áxnudor mɛːh, ebos áɣontom gwīrom gwíðanti”.
ʉ:nos dwʉ: tri:s pedwares pimpex xwexs seθam oθu: nawan degam

Proto-Brythonic to Middle Cëmraeg
ll > ɬ
l > ɬ / #_
s z > ʃ ʒ / _V[+high]
o > u / _N _NP _LP
o > we / #_

eː > iaː / _${i j}
eː > ieː
iaː ieː > aː eː > _{mm nn nt}
a > e / _${i j}

oː > wa / _$i
ɛː > oː
oː ʉː > weː wiː EXCEPT _{s #}
weː wiː > gwe: gwi: > ɟeː ɟyː / #_
weː wiː > eː iː / C[labial]_ _C[labial]
wi(:) > y
w > 0 / _P P_
w > v
k g / _{i y} > c ɟ

Vm Vn > V~ / _C
m n s > 0 / _#
xs > x / _#
n > nj / j V_i
Vn > V~ɾ / _V
lɣ ɣl > ɫ
l > ɫ / _V
ɫj > l
ɣ > 0

i~ i:~ > je~ je:~
u~ u:~ > ë~ ë~:
V~ : V

Word stress shifts to the penultimate syllable if it is heavy; else, on the antepenultimate if available; else on the penultimate.
a u > ë / _[-stress]#
V > 0 / _[-stress]#
V: > V / _[-stress]
a u > ë / _[-stress] when immediately pretonic
t d s > ts z ʃ / _i(:)
tr dr > tʃ dʒ
Vvi > y
i[-stress] > ë
tj dj sj zj > c ɟ ʃ ʒ
some syncope of unstressed vowels in VC_CV

ɟyːn dy: tʃi: pedër pjepex xvex seθa oθu navë degë

Middle Cëmraeg to Cëmraeg
ɣ > ð / _i _j
xv > f
ɬ > θ
e > ë / _sC
st sk > ʃ h
kt > ft
VvV[+front] > y
Vva Vvë > V
kl gl > c ɟ

V: > V

gjyn dy çi pedër pjep(eh) feh setha othu na degë

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:18 pm 
Sumerul
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Cëmrëg loses all the cases except nom/acc/dat, so:

makʷos makʷom makʷūy
makʷoi makʷūs makʷobos

mabos mabom mebi:ð
mebʉ: mebi:s mabovos

Let's say s > sh / V[+high]_ and y doesn't unround around labials. Also, -obos > -u. Also, u: > i: at some point, probably early. Did a: > o: actually happen? Doesn't look like it. Also, final vowels shorten ebfore -s.

mab mabë mebidh
meby mebësh mabu

----

dūnom dūnom dūnūy
dūnā dūnā dūnobos

di:nom di:nom di:ni:ð
di:nā di:nā di:nobos

ɟe4ë ɟe4ë zinjið
ɟe4a ɟe4a ɟe4ë

gjerë gjerë zinjidh (presumably gjeridh)
gjera gjera gjeru

----

ɸlāmā ɸlāmām ɸlāmāy
ɸlāmās ɸlāmās ɸlāmābos

lāṽā lāṽām lāṽāð
lāṽās lāṽās lāṽāvos

θa(va) θa(va) θa(va)ð
θa(vë) θa(vë) θa(va)vs

tha(va) tha(va) tha(va)dh
tha(vë) tha(vë) tha(va)fs

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:38 pm 
Sumerul
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Location: the Imperial Corridor

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:26 pm 
Sumerul
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23:45 < nort> feny 'pick up' > lok feny 'be picked up' > bbooan lok feny 'high' > t!arp!i bbooan lok feny 'respected high thing' -> 'sky' -> 'heaven'. ok
23:45 < nort> this becomes
23:45 < nort> well, t!arp!i is an article
23:45 < nort> and maybe this is lost or shortened to t!ar
23:46 < nort> monrukoush
23:46 < nort> well
23:47 < nort> monggukoush maybe
23:47 < nort> bc velar/uvular harmony
23:47 < nort> which could shorten to mongkoush
23:48 < nort> Kapi Mongkoush

23:56 < nort> which of c!hiip and lrur mean 'give' and 'man'
23:56 < nort> i forget
23:57 < nort> nt!ay looks like a classifier
23:57 < nort> no
23:57 < nort> nt!ay must mean 'thing'
23:58 < nort> heaven be_at ? ? large~large do_to ?
23:58 < nort> heaven be_at take? thing? large_large do_to man?
23:58 < nort> that looks right
23:58 < Oligomath> yes
23:58 < nort> ok, pthagbot approves. c!hiip, nt!ay, and lrur mean, respectively, take, thing, and man
00:01 < nort> what no
00:01 < nort> nt!ay means man
00:01 < nort> Oligomath: you are wrong
00:02 < Oligomath> right exactly
00:01 < nort> what no
00:01 < nort> nt!ay means man
00:01 < nort> Oligomath: you are wrong
00:02 < nort> c!hiip is thing
00:03 < nort> so lrur means... receive
00:06 < nort> N|ay ŋa xɛ ŋwe ŋa ǂhiip ɨx Cañ. = man NEG have ? NEG thing recompense heaven
00:06 < nort> the alternative
00:06 < nort> is to have j!ey become the word for 'human'
00:08 < nort> oh mb lrur is like 'nourish'
00:08 < nort> who cares abt lrur
00:08 < nort> ngwe could be 'good'
00:09 < nort> uix is prob 'recompense'
00:15 < nort> also @` > M`

Qapi Mongkoush nurrumsh ship 'o'o shi shdug kouzou dlaha.
qapi_mongkoush ne-k'-rum-sh ship 'o'o shi shdug kou-zou dlaha


Shdug nganxish ship tla' mang fushish Qapi Mongkoush.
shdug nga-n-x-sh ship tla' mang fu-shi-sh qapi_mongkoush


Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo. Xougo.
xouN-xo


and, old amqoli seven kill stele sig:
Dzere kharelelis bgulim dqumarzu da tuxorchi.
Bguli umkharye dzerem dabqamdze da nja.
Cor. Cor. Cor. Cor. Cor. Cor. Cor.

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:13 pm 
Avisaru
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Posts: 880
Location: Llundain
im not comfortable with this thread rn

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tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!





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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:44 pm 
Sumerul
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im not comfortable with the brythonic copula so were even

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:09 pm 
Sumerul
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Narngic is probably separated from the rest of Macro-Vengic, and Whatic is a small and isolated family spoken presumably in the inaccessible highlands. What about Hluic, Zotic, and Vengic?

Zotic could be in contact with Qoic, which would lead to tonogenesis.

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:01 pm 
Sumerul
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brythonic is hard, let's go shopping

Pannonian

An Indo-European language that originated somewhere in the general vicinity of Hungary before fucking off to Estonia, perhaps due to the Huns.

Preliminary sound changes leading to Proto-Pannonian:

Dḱm̥tóm Law: Word-initial coronal-dorsal clusters simplify to dorsals, with analogy throughout the paradigms. ('Earth' is reconstructed based on the accusative, as per Balto-Slavic.)

Standard Laryngeal Law 1: h₁e h₂e h₃e eh₁ eh₂ eh₃ > h₁e h₂a h₃o eh₁ ah₂ ah₃
Greek Laryngeal Law: h₁ h₂ h₃ / (# C)_(# C) > e a o
Standard Laryngeal Law 2: h₁ h₂ h₃ > H
Standard Laryngeal Law 3: VH > V:
Standard Laryngeal Law 4: H > 0 (including between a syllabic resonant and a vowel)

Bartholomae's Law: Plosives in a cluster containing a voiced aspirate become voiced aspirates. /s/ in a cluster containing a voiced aspirate becomes /z/.

Sievers' Law: *y and *w develop a corresponding epenthetic vowel when following a cluster.

Osthoff's Law: Long vowels shorten before *RC in the same syllable.

Winter's Law: Voiced plosives become preglottalized, merging with *hC (as in Dewrad's Wenetic) as vowel length.

Northern European declension law: Declensional *-bʰ- becomes -m-.

Syllabic resonant loss: Syllabic resonants resolve to uR sequences.

Boukolos rule: Labiovelars delabialize adjacent to /u w/.

Eimi rule: *s > z between a vowel and a voiced consonant. z drops and lengthens a preceding vowel.

RUKI retraction: *s becomes š when following /i y u w r/ or a dorsal (incl. palatovelars).

Pseudo-Tocharian stop shift: d > dz

Pseudo-Phrygian stop shift: P B Bʰ > P P B

Satemization: *ḱ ǵ > č ǯ. (Following -s is lost.)

First vowel merger: Unstressed, non-initial *e *o become i u, except in diphthongs, or when preceded by *y *w, in which case they become a.

TT rule: *-tt- > -st-

W loss: Cw > CC ( > C / #_)

Not Kluge's Law: Nasals assimilate to a preceding resonant. (but *-rm- > *-nn-)

First vowel shift and palatalization:
0) š > x
0.5) sy > š
1) e > yə
2) Ky > Č
3) Kʷy > Ky
4) Ty > T́, but ts > ś
5) ry > r; clusters with r don't assimilate for palatalization
6) a > ə / _[-stress]${i u}
7) unC > ́ənC
8) o > a
9) Ti > T́i

This is probably when Latin loanwords start coming in -- although most early ones would be before the vowel shift. The inventory at this point is:

/a ə i u ā ē ō ī ū ai au ei eu oi ou/
/p b pʲ bʲ t d tʲ dʲ ts č ǯ k g/
/s sʲ š x/
/m mʲ n nʲ/
/w wʲ l lʲ r/

óinus tṓw trə́yis kəttáris ṕə́nki šəč śəptúm áčtṓw néwun śə́čumt

kurḗi áwix, kə́šu wullā́ ńə yəst, yə́ččuns šṕə́čit, oinum ǯə kurúm wáǯum ẃə́ǯəntum oinum-ki mḗčam bárum, oinum-ki ǯḿə́num ṓču b́ə́rəntum.
áwix tu yəččoiḿus weukít: 'čḗr əgnutár moi yəččəns ā́čəntum ənírum wītsəntéi.'
yəččōs tu weukónt: 'člud́í, áwei, čḗr ǯə əgnutár unsméi wītsəntḿás. anḗr, pát́ix, áẃum ur wullā́m śəbi kurréut́i nu gənnum ẃəstrum ńəǯi áẃum wullā́ yəśt́i.'
tṓts čəčluwṓs ówix ā́črum būkít.


----

Before the first vowel merger: (in case I decide to merge o ō into a ā as most satem languages do)

óinos twṓu tréyis kʷetwóris pénkʷi swéč septúm očtṓw néwun tséčumt

kurḗi ówiš, kʷésyo wullā́ ne est, éčwons spéčet, oinom ge kurúm wóǯom wéǯontum oinom-kʷi mḗčam bórom, oinom-kʷi ǯménum ṓču bérontum.
ówiš tu ečwoim(y)os weukít: 'čḗr agnutór moi éčwons ā́čontum anírum wītsuntéi.'
éčwōs tu weukónt: 'čludí, ówei, čḗr ge agnutór unsméi wītsuntm(y)ós. anḗr, pótiš, áwyom ur wullā́m sebi kurnéuti nu gʷénnom wéstrom néǯi áwyom wullā́ ésti.'
tṓts čečluwṓs ówiš ā́črom būkít.

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:48 am 
Smeric
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Looks nice so far. An interesting combination of changes from various IE languages all around Europe, quite reasonable for an IE language that sits right in the centre of it all.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:34 pm 
Sumerul
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:08 am 
Sumerul
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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:29 am 
Smeric
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The 1sg thematic secondary ending was *-om


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:38 pm 
Sumerul
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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:04 am 
Smeric
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If you want to follow Europe, use standard Brugmannian PIE. Jasanoff's *h₂e-conjugation theory is explicitly aimed at reconstructing pre-Anatolian PIE.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:45 pm 
Sumerul
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OK, to hell with trying to piece it together from Wikipedia and papers then. Not sure where to start with books -- I've managed to find a PDF of Clarkson's textbook, but that's all. Szemerenyi?

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:01 pm 
Smeric
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Get Indo-European Language and Culture by Benjamin W. Fortson IV. It's IMHO the best book on the market on PIE, and affordable. Szemerényi is not recommendable, it was out of date even when it was written (S. never accepted laryngeal theory).

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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:10 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:45 am 
Sumerul
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The idea there is that, since this is somewhere between Italic, Balto-Slavic, and Greek [actually Phrygian -- I'm preserving middle -r, for example, which Phrygian does and Greek doesn't*], I don't have to care about laryngeals (or anything else that isn't necessary for NW IE) except for the triple reflex (if I don't take it out).

* but not the augment, which Phrygian and Greek share, since eventually stress will become word-initial [due to Germanic and Finnic influence?], maybe with the location of the original accent preserved as word-level tone; the augment wasn't obligatory in Homeric Greek

Fortson doesn't give information on the innovations of the various branches; I'd probably follow Italic here to some extent, if only because Latin is the only old IE language I know anything about. I'll certainly need an innovated imperfect. Would making most verbs into unreduplicated present-perfects [and preserving the other tenses some other way] be a plausible innovation?

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:36 am 
Smeric
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You get unreduplicated present verbs based on old perfects in both Germanic and Balto-Slavic, although they are rare in both language families. If you make that a more frequent phenomenon, you need to have a look at the semantics.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:14 pm 
Sumerul
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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:19 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:23 pm 
Sumerul
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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:48 pm 
Sumerul
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:52 pm 
Smeric
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Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:49 am
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Location: Bonn, Germany


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