The Innovative Usage Thread
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.
- Frislander
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Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Same here, which I think reflects how the majority of British people say them.Buran wrote:I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Good to hear my non-native instinct on this is correct :).
JAL
JAL
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I've noticed something similar in my own speech. I am no native speaker of English, nor does my native language have [k͡x] in its inventory. But my pronunciation of the word "cataclysmal" within a song somehow turned to [kæɾək͡xlɪzməl] or even [kæɾəXlɪzməl] with an uvular fricative. It feels completely unnatural to pronounce it any other way within the song; but when reading the lyrics I just pronounce it with a [k]. What is going on?Zaarin wrote:Something odd I noticed about my own speech recently is that I believe I pronounce /k/ as [k͡x] utterance-finally and word-initially before /ɹ/; the former seems to be somewhat inconsistent, but the latter seems to be more general.
Meine Muttersprache ist Deutsch. My second language is English. Olim discēbam Latinam. Sú ginévam Jagárhvejak. Opiskelen Suomea. Un ek kür en lütten Tick Platt.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I also often pronounce /k/ as [kxʰ] before /l/ initially myself.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Same here.Buran wrote:I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.
On further consideration I think I do have to add /l/ to the list.Travis B. wrote:I also often pronounce /k/ as [kxʰ] before /l/ initially myself.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Ditto. In fact, the versions with /ʃ/ sound overpronounced to me, on a par with /zg/ in disgusting.Vijay wrote:I use /ʒ/ in all of those.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Thanks for the responses. It's interesting to learn that some other people do this as well.
I wonder if it's related to word frequency. Did you mean to write"revision," or is that a typo for "revulsion"?Axiem wrote: I use /ʒ/ in "convulsion" and "revision", but /ʃ/ in "propulsion" and "expulsion".
Buran wrote:I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.
Frislander wrote:Same here, which I think reflects how the majority of British people say them.
Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?Zaarin wrote:Same here.
I haven't heard /zg/ used in "disgusting." It's interesting that it sound overpronounced to you, since to me it looks like the result of voicing assimilation, and assimilation is often thought of as "lazy" or "sloppy" rather than over-articulated.linguoboy wrote:Ditto. In fact, the versions with /ʃ/ sound overpronounced to me, on a par with /zg/ in disgusting.Vijay wrote:I use /ʒ/ in all of those.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
No, I have /ʒ/ in version. I do have /ʃ/ in immersion, however.Sumelic wrote:Buran wrote:I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.Frislander wrote:Same here, which I think reflects how the majority of British people say them.Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?.Zaarin wrote:Same here.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Always /ʒ/.Sumelic wrote:Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?Buran wrote:I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.
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Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I'm not one of those three, but as a British person: it varies. Some words can only have /S/, like "immersion" or "torsion" - using /Z/ would sound completely wrong. Other words can be heard or even said with either: I would normally have /S/ in 'version' and 'recursion', but not always. To me, /Z/ in 'version' sounds like an American, but in 'recursion' it's maybe a bit more respectable. Of course, the twist here is that the contexts aren't non-intervocalic in SSBE.Sumelic wrote: Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?
There's also /Z/ that comes from softening of /dZ/, and that's never /S/. (lAdZEs or lAZEs, never lASEs). I was actually going to post about final softening of /dZ/, but now I can't think of the darned examples... oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I did indeed intend to write "revision". It was intended for contrast, though I can see how the broken parallelism would be confusing.Sumelic wrote:Thanks for the responses. It's interesting to learn that some other people do this as well.
I wonder if it's related to word frequency. Did you mean to write"revision," or is that a typo for "revulsion"?Axiem wrote: I use /ʒ/ in "convulsion" and "revision", but /ʃ/ in "propulsion" and "expulsion".
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I think I have refu[ʤ]e but centrifu[ʒ]e. (Hard to be sure, since I hardly ever say the latter.)Salmoneus wrote:oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Centrifuge was borrowed late (according to etymonline late 19th century), and the French pronunciation is with /Z/. Perhaps refuge with /Z/ is contaminated by that?Salmoneus wrote:I was actually going to post about final softening of /dZ/, but now I can't think of the darned examples... oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.
JAL
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
For me, refuge varies between /ʤ~ʒ/, but centrifuge is always /ʒ/.linguoboy wrote:I think I have refu[ʤ]e but centrifu[ʒ]e. (Hard to be sure, since I hardly ever say the latter.)Salmoneus wrote:oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I have /dʒ/ in both refuge and centrifuge.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Today I heard someone say "a liquor" in reference to alcohol purchased from a shop. I'm not sure if this was abbreviated from "malt liquor" (which can be countable in the same way as "beer") or if it means a portion of any sort of alcohol.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.
Oh and just something really stupid. I've caught myself taking simple past forms of strong verbs and adding -en to make past participles. Thus dranken, tooken, and wroten. I doubt anyone else does this and I only seem to do it when I'm exhausted.
Oh and just something really stupid. I've caught myself taking simple past forms of strong verbs and adding -en to make past participles. Thus dranken, tooken, and wroten. I doubt anyone else does this and I only seem to do it when I'm exhausted.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
"A Portuguese" sounds awkward but possible to me. Same for any other nationality ending in "-ese."Viktor77 wrote:Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.
Oh and just something really stupid. I've caught myself taking simple past forms of strong verbs and adding -en to make past participles. Thus dranken, tooken, and wroten. I doubt anyone else does this and I only seem to do it when I'm exhausted.
Native speakers sometimes say things like "boughten" or "broughten": i.e. adding "en" to past participles where it's not there in the standard language. I can't imagine myself saying "dranken" instead of "drunk(en)", "tooken" instead of "taken", or "wroten" instead of "written", though.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
It sounds awkward but not explicitly incorrect to me. For me personally, words ending in -ese or -ish are either adjectives or collective nouns, while anthronyms ending in -(i)an are acceptable as count nouns. So "a German" or "a Peruvian," but not "a Portuguese" or "an English." Anomalous forms can go either way: "a Swiss" but not "a French." Some have easy workarounds: "a Frenchman" or "an Englishwoman." Words ending in -ese require periphrastic constructions: "a Portuguese person."Viktor77 wrote:Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
"A Swiss" sounds awkward to me.Zaarin wrote:It sounds awkward but not explicitly incorrect to me. For me personally, words ending in -ese or -ish are either adjectives or collective nouns, while anthronyms ending in -(i)an are acceptable as count nouns. So "a German" or "a Peruvian," but not "a Portuguese" or "an English." Anomalous forms can go either way: "a Swiss" but not "a French." Some have easy workarounds: "a Frenchman" or "an Englishwoman." Words ending in -ese require periphrastic constructions: "a Portuguese person."Viktor77 wrote:Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.
Sumelic, those two forms sound like something I've heard before. I think I've done that before, too.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Depends. Are we talking about dogs?Viktor77 wrote:Can one really say 'a Portuguese?'
In the movie Mystic Pizza, some characters used the backformed "Portuguee". It had much the same mildly derogatory connotation as "Chinee".
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
I think it's marginally OK but I usually correct my students when they say "a Japanese" – whether or not it's correct it sounds better to native speakers to say "a Japanese person".
(I usually don't bother teaching the collective noun "the Japanese", or "the Portuguese" until higher levels, incidentally)
(I usually don't bother teaching the collective noun "the Japanese", or "the Portuguese" until higher levels, incidentally)
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Two points: native speakers also make mistakes and this sounds like you're just incoherent when tired. On the other hand, "tooken" is common in Scotland.Viktor77 wrote:Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.
Oh and just something really stupid. I've caught myself taking simple past forms of strong verbs and adding -en to make past participles. Thus dranken, tooken, and wroten. I doubt anyone else does this and I only seem to do it when I'm exhausted.
Re: The Innovative Usage Thread
Indeed, 'tooken' and variants such as 'taen' are used for the past participle in Scots. These variants and, more often, other similar variants such as 'tuikin' or 'taikin' were already common forms of the past participle of the verb 'tak' in Older Scots, (defined as Scots up until 1707).