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zompist bboard • View topic - Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:50 pm 
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:30 pm 
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:07 am 
Lebom
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Everything's been taken care of - take a look.

As for the names, prepare for a bit of worldbuilding. Phoenician Shayana is a closely related "sister" language of the Ilosean Shayana and one of the three known extant Seheretic languages. Shayana is an exonym, a corruption of the pan-Seheretic cognate /ʂ̺ä:jɪŋ/, which means "language" and is descended from the Modern English "saying." Ilosean means that it's from Ilos, a desert but otherwise earthlike planet that serves as the political, cultural and historical center of the Liin people, while Phoenician means that it's from Phoenicia, another desert but habitable planet in a nearby system, except with rocks instead of sand. Phoenicia was settled by members of the schismatic Liin Phoenix political movement (hence the name) after they decided to get away from Ilos when a guy they really didn't like got elected as the Extraordinary Head of State - this whole affair later resulted in the most ridiculous and contrived military conflict in the history of the Liin as the right-wing ruling parties on both Ilos and Phoenicia decided to wage war on the other guys to prop up their falling public support, leading to about two decades of pointlessly bloody warfare and culminating in the angry Phoenician public overthrowing their rulers and then going to Ilos to help their friends from the Ilosean opposition to do the same and unite the two planets under one banner.


Last edited by Knit Tie on Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:21 am 
Smeric
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Why did the planets get those names though?

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:25 am 
Lebom
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Watsonianly, Ilos got its name from the people that lived there before the Liin conquered it and Phoenicia got its name from "Rising Phoenix," the ideological Talmud of its settlers. Doylistically, I named them pretty much at random.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:57 pm 
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There is at least one case I found of syllable-final /ɦ/ in Early Modern Shayana. I've decided that in careful diction, it is preserved as breathy voice on the previous sound, and otherwise it tends to be elided. This feature might be preserved in theatre and in conservative speech in Modern Shayana. The problem is what happens to the sound in other speech. Does it become falling tone or does it simply elide? I think that the answer would the first in semi-conservative dialects and the second in the least conservative dialects.

Also, if only short vowels elide, then why does the final /i/ in automatic elide?

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:51 am 
Lebom
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The final /i/ in automatic doesn't actually elide in this version, thanks for catching that.

As for the word-final /ɦ/, in what conditions is it observed? It's probably a mistake on my part, but it might make for an interesting feature.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:27 am 
Smeric
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I found only one case (still using the previous wordlist), but there might be more:Also, obstruents that get breathy voicing as a result of the allophone I mentioned should be voiced regardless of aspiration, so word-final obsruent + /ɦ/ allophonically does not distinguish aspiration (the allophony ends when suffixes are added, causing /ɦ/ to elide if the suffix starts with a consonant and causing it to breathy voice the new vowel instead if it starts with a vowel.)

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:40 am 
Lebom
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That sounds nice, but such a feature would only be retained in the most conservative dialects and/or formal registers. In common speech word-final /ɦ/ would just elide tracelessly.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:25 pm 
Smeric
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I want to split Early Modern Shayana into two substages but I can't think of a name. I've split Middle Shayana into Early Middle Shayana and Late Middle Shayana. Splitting Early Modern Shayana into Early Early Modern Shayana and Late Early Modern Shayana sounds too ridiculous.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:37 pm 
Smeric
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Calling it Early Modern Shayana and Middle Modern Shayana also doesn't work, as then Modern Shayana would be Late Modern, which seems weird.

On grammar, I suggest you start by making the English grammar resemble that of international English varieties spoken in the origin areas of the original colonists, with the largest groups and the dialects of the native English speaking minority having the most grammatical influence. Currently, it seems like the groups that are progressing the fastest in space are China, India and the UAE, so look at Indian English and Chinglish. Than again, considering that you went in the end with alveolars instead of a dental-alveolar contrast and the French/German influences, you might want to look less at Indian English and more at European English.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:13 pm 
Lebom
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How about Classical Shayana and Post-Classical Shayana? Or Transitional Shayana and Early Modern Shayana?

As for the grammar - thanks, I'll try to put your advice to good use.

I'm going to go with European and Arabic influence before Middle Shayana and then a bunch of weird stuff like Bantu and Burmese, since the story takes place both in alternative history and in the reasonably far future.

Actually, speaking of grammar, is it possible for a grammar that's agglutinative with quite a lot of analytical parts to become fusional due to the vowel reduction and consonant cluster simplification in Early Middle Shayana without turning the still-analytical part of it agglutinative first? I'm trying to have Modern Shayana be a language that just finished going through an event that turned its previously highly regular morpology into a horrid exception-riddled mess that could make a Frenchman weep while its grammar became so overloaded with cases and tenses that it's making Finno-Ugric look simple. It'll be nice to have a "classical" version of a language to be regarded as clearly easier to learn and use by most people, for once.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:54 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:10 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:23 pm 
Smeric
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FYI, your probably best off asking native speakers of other languages about mistakes they and other people they know make in English rather than looking at the Wikipedia page if you are very concerned about accuracy.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:44 pm 
Smeric
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Did the unaspirated alveo-palatal affricate merge with the unaspirated palatal affricate/plosive in Modern Shayana? Also, I think that the schwa offglides are phonemic short schwas rather than allophones.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:28 pm 
Lebom
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They are distinguished like in Hungarian, at least in the mainstream dialect, though I think having their merger be a sign of low prestige dialect would be a nice touch.

Schwa offglides - I think they can still be allophones - Irish, for example, has both phonemic and allophonic schwas.

As for the long vowels, the shift from long-marking to short-marking isn't what I was trying to achieve, but it sounds like a nice feature to include. I'll need to come up with a different vowel reduction rule to make my vision of a vowel reduction-driven morphological and grammatical paradigm shift a reality, though. Any ideas?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:57 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


Last edited by mèþru on Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:20 pm 
Smeric
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I'm about to release what I call Shayana 2.5 romanisation as a nod to all of your recent fixes. I suggest the next fix be labeled 3.0.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:41 pm 
Smeric
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Shayana 2.5: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7OQUU ... sp=sharing

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:34 am 
Lebom
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That looks great, mèþru! Although I'd like to ask you why you chose to retain the glottal stop instead of the affricate in the [ˈoˤ.qe.t͡sʰːekt] to [ˈo˧˩ʔeə̯̆k˧] transition and why you chose to delete the /s/ in [nexeset] and turn it into [ˈn̟ʲeə̯̆˧xeə̯̆t˧] instead of [ˈn̟ʲeə̯̆˧xsxeə̯̆t˧].

Anyway, regarding the orthography - I like the overall crazy feel of it, but I think that after the Transitional Shayana period (i.e. after the vowel elision extravaganza), the existing orthography would be so impenetrable that the people would likely decide to go for a much more comprehensive reform, i.e. something along the lines of Navajo for the vowels, for example.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:27 am 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:35 am 
Lebom
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I see. I'll fix it this evening.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:46 pm 
Lebom
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Mèþru, I doubt that the allophony shift can make sense if it occurs before the vowel deletion - I can see the yod-insertion arising spontaneously, but nothing else.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:54 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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