Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs.

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

I need the pending formula for Shayana 2.0 "trimming" of consonant clusters, as I am stuck on one of the steps. Also, in the elision of low tone vowels, you say that they
Knit Tie wrote:leave a phonemic low and phonetically falling tone on the preceding vowel (/loxɑˀ/ → /lo˧˩x/).
That would create a new tone phonemic falling tone: The falling tone that previously occurred before any syllable preceding low tone syllables word-finally would become phonemic, and previously low tone vowels within a word also become phonemic. Rising tone would also become phonemic. At that stage, you already have a full fledged tone system. As both low tone and rising tone are now rare and would contrast with each other an mid tone, they probably disappear. My suggestion for the most tone variety is that low tone becomes an allotone of falling tone after another falling tone, while rising tone is an allotone of mid tone after a falling tone. Alternatives include keeping them as very rare tones until low tone merges with falling tone anyway as indicated in your sound changes or having one or both merge with mid tone (which makes mid tone the majority of syllables). I also suggest splitting the change that this is part of (step 7 of Early Modern Shayana) into several changes, as this is rather a lot to be happening all at once. Grandparents probably wouldn't understand what language their grandchildren are speaking!
Also, a few questions on naming:
What is Phoenician Shayana? How is it, a space language descended from English, "Phoenician"? What does Ilosean mean? What does Shayana mean? Where did all these names come from?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

By analogy with my suggested idea, mid tone can allotonically become high after its rising tone allotone, which could then spark further tone sound changes. Instead of finishing my Shayana 2.0 romanisation, I think I'll wait for you to address this and the dental stop thing, which I have repeatedly raised:
Back on October 15th:
I wrote:Non-Dravidian members of the colony (I’m assuming that Dravidian speakers are not a majority) will have trouble differentiating dental from alveolar stops, so I think that the merger should be as soon as the dental fricatives become stops. Also, what happens to /w/ in a postvocalic position besides those after /a o/?
Back on October 19th:
I wrote:I still think that most of the speakers will have trouble differentiating between dental and alveolar stops, especially as many Romance languages use denti-alveolar stops.
Back on October 26th:
I wrote:Also, what about my suggestions from earlier (/iw ew/ collapsing into /y ø/ and an earlier alveolar-dental merger among speakers who don't come from places on Earth with this distinction.)
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Everything's been taken care of - take a look.

As for the names, prepare for a bit of worldbuilding. Phoenician Shayana is a closely related "sister" language of the Ilosean Shayana and one of the three known extant Seheretic languages. Shayana is an exonym, a corruption of the pan-Seheretic cognate /ʂ̺ä:jɪŋ/, which means "language" and is descended from the Modern English "saying." Ilosean means that it's from Ilos, a desert but otherwise earthlike planet that serves as the political, cultural and historical center of the Liin people, while Phoenician means that it's from Phoenicia, another desert but habitable planet in a nearby system, except with rocks instead of sand. Phoenicia was settled by members of the schismatic Liin Phoenix political movement (hence the name) after they decided to get away from Ilos when a guy they really didn't like got elected as the Extraordinary Head of State - this whole affair later resulted in the most ridiculous and contrived military conflict in the history of the Liin as the right-wing ruling parties on both Ilos and Phoenicia decided to wage war on the other guys to prop up their falling public support, leading to about two decades of pointlessly bloody warfare and culminating in the angry Phoenician public overthrowing their rulers and then going to Ilos to help their friends from the Ilosean opposition to do the same and unite the two planets under one banner.
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Why did the planets get those names though?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Watsonianly, Ilos got its name from the people that lived there before the Liin conquered it and Phoenicia got its name from "Rising Phoenix," the ideological Talmud of its settlers. Doylistically, I named them pretty much at random.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

There is at least one case I found of syllable-final /ɦ/ in Early Modern Shayana. I've decided that in careful diction, it is preserved as breathy voice on the previous sound, and otherwise it tends to be elided. This feature might be preserved in theatre and in conservative speech in Modern Shayana. The problem is what happens to the sound in other speech. Does it become falling tone or does it simply elide? I think that the answer would the first in semi-conservative dialects and the second in the least conservative dialects.

Also, if only short vowels elide, then why does the final /i/ in automatic elide?
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

The final /i/ in automatic doesn't actually elide in this version, thanks for catching that.

As for the word-final /ɦ/, in what conditions is it observed? It's probably a mistake on my part, but it might make for an interesting feature.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

I found only one case (still using the previous wordlist), but there might be more:

angry

engrhee
/ˈεɴ.ʁ̞e/
eangrhe
/ˈεɴ.ʁ̞e/
engrhe
/ˈeɴ.ʁ̞e/
engrh
/ˈĕŋɦ˧/

Also, obstruents that get breathy voicing as a result of the allophone I mentioned should be voiced regardless of aspiration, so word-final obsruent + /ɦ/ allophonically does not distinguish aspiration (the allophony ends when suffixes are added, causing /ɦ/ to elide if the suffix starts with a consonant and causing it to breathy voice the new vowel instead if it starts with a vowel.)
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

That sounds nice, but such a feature would only be retained in the most conservative dialects and/or formal registers. In common speech word-final /ɦ/ would just elide tracelessly.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

I want to split Early Modern Shayana into two substages but I can't think of a name. I've split Middle Shayana into Early Middle Shayana and Late Middle Shayana. Splitting Early Modern Shayana into Early Early Modern Shayana and Late Early Modern Shayana sounds too ridiculous.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Calling it Early Modern Shayana and Middle Modern Shayana also doesn't work, as then Modern Shayana would be Late Modern, which seems weird.

On grammar, I suggest you start by making the English grammar resemble that of international English varieties spoken in the origin areas of the original colonists, with the largest groups and the dialects of the native English speaking minority having the most grammatical influence. Currently, it seems like the groups that are progressing the fastest in space are China, India and the UAE, so look at Indian English and Chinglish. Than again, considering that you went in the end with alveolars instead of a dental-alveolar contrast and the French/German influences, you might want to look less at Indian English and more at European English.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

How about Classical Shayana and Post-Classical Shayana? Or Transitional Shayana and Early Modern Shayana?

As for the grammar - thanks, I'll try to put your advice to good use.

I'm going to go with European and Arabic influence before Middle Shayana and then a bunch of weird stuff like Bantu and Burmese, since the story takes place both in alternative history and in the reasonably far future.

Actually, speaking of grammar, is it possible for a grammar that's agglutinative with quite a lot of analytical parts to become fusional due to the vowel reduction and consonant cluster simplification in Early Middle Shayana without turning the still-analytical part of it agglutinative first? I'm trying to have Modern Shayana be a language that just finished going through an event that turned its previously highly regular morpology into a horrid exception-riddled mess that could make a Frenchman weep while its grammar became so overloaded with cases and tenses that it's making Finno-Ugric look simple. It'll be nice to have a "classical" version of a language to be regarded as clearly easier to learn and use by most people, for once.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Made before Knit Ties's new post: The Wikipedia article on Denglish, German-English hybrids, lists a lot of what I consider intuitive changes and is pretty useful. The Chinglish page also has some interesting features. Some ideas:
  • Mission 17 dialect (These all start at the same time):
    • The articles are dropped frequently, becoming extinct by the end of stage 9 of sound changes to Old Shayana.
    • In the meanwhile, new compound words and Chinglish verbosity become acceptable style as early as the Mission 17 dialect. This would become useful in distinguishing homophones and prevent some homophony in future sound changes. Pseudo-anglicisms abound, but many of them are avoided outside of lower-class speech until the reforms of Old Shayana.
    • The word order begins shifting to topic + adverbial + verb + comment. This would become the norm by Old Shayana.
    • The English person distinction is lost among speakers of Chinese origin, and this trait is often passed to descendants, helping to create a long lasting social distinction between Chinese Shayanans and other Shayanan groups (I have no idea which will be the positive, which will be the one accused of having all the power).
    • Possessives are often prefixed with v-, derived from of, in colloquial speech, especially in the comment position.
    • Present tense cannot be used to refer to future actions anymore, and present facts are written in present tense.
  • Old Shayana (first four happen at the same time):
    • Person distinctions are now lost among all groups.
    • Auxiliary verbs, when used in their auxiliary sense, move to the adverbial position and revert to their bare infinitive form. To distinguish the auxiliary would from will, which have become homophones, would is prefixed with bi (from be): biwü and , respectively. Passive voice disappears in the past tense.
    • Some non-adverbs used adverbially move to the adverbial position.
    • Possessive plurals simplify, making possessives identical in the plural and singular. Numbers are used to disambiguate between them.
    • Passive voice construction now marks the comment when it is a subject.
    • Irregular verbs regularise.
  • Early Middle Shayana
    • Groups of words in the adverbial position become compounds.
    • Numbers become common with non-possessive plurals as well. Later, the possessive singular loses plural marking.
    • Subject marking in the comment in past tense is reintroduced by placing bi directly before the verb.
  • Late Middle Shayana
    • Present progressive verbs express agreement with bi by taking it as a prefix. bi later disappears in the adverbial position if it is not already compounded with other adverbials.
  • Early Modern Shayana
    • You mentioned in Shayana V1.0 the loss of the noun-specific adjectival suffix /-i/ in the sound changes leading to Early Modern Shayana, which corresponds to step 6. I don't see a reason for not keeping that grammatical change.
    • Possessive prefixing is now obligatory in all positions.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Knit Tie wrote:Transitional Shayana and Early Modern Shayana
Thanks! I'll use that.
Knit Tie wrote:is it possible for a grammar that's agglutinative with quite a lot of analytical parts to become fusional due to the vowel reduction and consonant cluster simplification in Early Middle Shayana without turning the still-analytical part of it agglutinative first?
I don't see why not. Your vowel reduction doesn't change much however as all of the progressive aspect and simple past tense markers have long vowels. Long vowels are so common at this point that I reanalyse them in the IPA as "normal" length while "normal" length short vowels are marked as short.
Knit Tie wrote:It'll be nice to have a "classical" version of a language to be regarded as clearly easier to learn and use by most people, for once.
The term "Classical" actually usually refers to the literary language at an era considered the golden era of either the language's usage or its home country(which often are the same time, anyway). In my opinion, if you use the first orthographic reform for Old Shayana under my upcoming Shayana 2.0 doc (that stage will be pretty much the same as 1.0, however) serves well. Later educators will probably introduce acute accents to distinguish homophones when teaching this version.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

FYI, your probably best off asking native speakers of other languages about mistakes they and other people they know make in English rather than looking at the Wikipedia page if you are very concerned about accuracy.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Did the unaspirated alveo-palatal affricate merge with the unaspirated palatal affricate/plosive in Modern Shayana? Also, I think that the schwa offglides are phonemic short schwas rather than allophones.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

They are distinguished like in Hungarian, at least in the mainstream dialect, though I think having their merger be a sign of low prestige dialect would be a nice touch.

Schwa offglides - I think they can still be allophones - Irish, for example, has both phonemic and allophonic schwas.

As for the long vowels, the shift from long-marking to short-marking isn't what I was trying to achieve, but it sounds like a nice feature to include. I'll need to come up with a different vowel reduction rule to make my vision of a vowel reduction-driven morphological and grammatical paradigm shift a reality, though. Any ideas?

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Knit Tie wrote:I'll need to come up with a different vowel reduction rule to make my vision of a vowel reduction-driven morphological and grammatical paradigm shift a reality, though. Any ideas?
This can work with my previous idea of splitting step 7 of Early Modern Shayana into multiple steps. The deletion of /j x xʲ/ (which I believe should be conditioned to specific groups vowel instead of being in general) and allophony (minus schwa and /ɹ/) could be done as a change before the reductions. /w/ is deleted between front vowels and labials. Then we could have step 8. /ə/ could then shorten unconditionally, making it more of schwa. As a schwa, it cannot hold stress, which transfers to other vowels. This is when the first vowel and consonant reduction would start and would go the same as in your sound changes. The breaking of aspirated palatalised sounds in the coda happens next. Then, step 9 of Modern Shayana happens. What follows is a huge vowel shift. Schwa in allophony merges with phonemic schwa. /ĕ̞/ after /x/ or [x] would then merge with /ə̆/, while /ɛ̃̆/ in the same position merges with /ɐ̃̆/. Then /ə̆/ lowers to /ɐ̆/ in closed syllables unless if succeeded by an aspirated consonant. /ə̃̆/ lowers to /ɐ̃̆/ unconditionally. The aspirated consonants in codas deaspirate. To compensate, /e̞ ɛ̃/ become short when between stressed syllables and finally if not stressed, /ɪ̆ ɪ̃̆/ lower to /ĕ̞ ẽ] in all cases and /ŏ̞ o̞ ɔ̃̆ ɔ̃/ front to /ə̆ e̞ ɐ̃̆ ɛ̃/ after palatalised consonants or /j/ (except that /o̞ ɔ̃/ don't shift when stressed). /i ĩ ŭ u ũ̆ ũ/ lower in closed syllables to close-mid vowels while the mid vowels rise to their former values. Again, if a schwa is stressed at any point in those sound changes, it will lose stress before other sound changes. Short vowels are elided again, but only those without stress between non-eliding vowels. Schwa is inserted into any difficult consonant clusters. Allophonic schwa offglides and onglides reappear, this time as [ɤ̯̆] In addition, /i ĩ/ lower to /ɪ̆ ɪ̃̆/ when between stressed syllables and finally if not stressed. Then, /i ĩ ɪ̆ ɪ̃̆/ back after /ʔ ɦ/ and both phonemic and allophonic [x w] to /u ũ ʊ̆ ʊ̃̆/. The allophonic stressed diphthongs break into separate vowels. Short vowels are elided again, this time only finally and only mid-tone. Consonants merge if necessary, final aspirates deaspirate again. All remaining final vowels in polysyllabic words become short.
Last edited by mèþru on Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

I'm about to release what I call Shayana 2.5 romanisation as a nod to all of your recent fixes. I suggest the next fix be labeled 3.0.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

That looks great, mèþru! Although I'd like to ask you why you chose to retain the glottal stop instead of the affricate in the [ˈoˤ.qe.t͡sʰːekt] to [ˈo˧˩ʔeə̯̆k˧] transition and why you chose to delete the /s/ in [nexeset] and turn it into [ˈn̟ʲeə̯̆˧xeə̯̆t˧] instead of [ˈn̟ʲeə̯̆˧xsxeə̯̆t˧].

Anyway, regarding the orthography - I like the overall crazy feel of it, but I think that after the Transitional Shayana period (i.e. after the vowel elision extravaganza), the existing orthography would be so impenetrable that the people would likely decide to go for a much more comprehensive reform, i.e. something along the lines of Navajo for the vowels, for example.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

Thanks!
Knit Tie wrote:Although I'd like to ask you why you chose to retain the glottal stop instead of the affricate in the [ˈoˤ.qe.t͡sʰːekt] to [ˈo˧˩ʔeə̯̆k˧] transition and why you chose to delete the /s/ in [nexeset] and turn it into [ˈn̟ʲeə̯̆˧xeə̯̆t˧] instead of [ˈn̟ʲeə̯̆˧xsxeə̯̆t˧].
You had a sound change to delete every second obstruent in obstruent clusters, so that is what I did.
Knit Tie wrote:Anyway, regarding the orthography - I like the overall crazy feel of it, but I think that after the Transitional Shayana period (i.e. after the vowel elision extravaganza), the existing orthography would be so impenetrable that the people would likely decide to go for a much more comprehensive reform, i.e. something along the lines of Navajo for the vowels, for example.
Not really, as there are clear rules for when a consonant is silent and more difficult consonants are rewritten.
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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

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I see. I'll fix it this evening.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by Knit Tie »

Mèþru, I doubt that the allophony shift can make sense if it occurs before the vowel deletion - I can see the yod-insertion arising spontaneously, but nothing else.

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Re: Ilosean Shayana, AKA this is your English on space drugs

Post by mèþru »

mèþru wrote:
Knit Tie wrote:Anyway, regarding the orthography - I like the overall crazy feel of it, but I think that after the Transitional Shayana period (i.e. after the vowel elision extravaganza), the existing orthography would be so impenetrable that the people would likely decide to go for a much more comprehensive reform, i.e. something along the lines of Navajo for the vowels, for example.
Not really, as there are clear rules for when a consonant is silent and more difficult consonants are rewritten.
I just realised that maybe some of the problems you've encountered in prediction were due to errors I made. If you still have this problem, you can point out words that are giving trouble.
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