Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Languages
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- Sanci
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Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Languages
I am currently creating a conlang which inflects based on Aspect instead of Tense. It's something I'm not used to, so I'm having trouble figuring out how to express certain things. On "A quick update" in Ephemera, I had asked about expressing age in such a language and got a solution I believe works quite well. There are still a few things I'm having trouble with however.
Right now, the only thing that's troubling me is how to express things that would involve a copula. Phrases like "I am a very tall midget" (a cookie if you get the reference) or "You are a very odd person". I may add onto this OP if anything else pops up.
Thanks for reading this, have a good 2017!
Right now, the only thing that's troubling me is how to express things that would involve a copula. Phrases like "I am a very tall midget" (a cookie if you get the reference) or "You are a very odd person". I may add onto this OP if anything else pops up.
Thanks for reading this, have a good 2017!
~$ snappdragon
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
I would just use an imperfective (or progressive or whatever your language uses).
Bish Bash Rabadash
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- Sanci
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Imperfective it is then.smii wrote:I would just use an imperfective (or progressive or whatever your language uses).
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Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Just be careful what the actual distinction is. "Perfective" and "imperfective" are wildly imprecise.
The present tense in "I am a very tall midget" is quite unambiguous, but there are languages that have aspectual distinctions in the copula in the past tense (Romance). "I was a very tall midget" is a little bit more complicated; e.g., in Portuguese, you could translate was as either fui or era (the former is perfective, the latter imperfective). Slavic languages however, where aspect features prominently, don't make this distinction in their copulae, to the best of my knowledge (this may be related to the fact their perfective/imperfective distinction hinges more on telicity*, whereas in Romance languages boundedness seems to be the key).
*Auto-correct suggests 'felicity' for 'telicity', and now I want to create a language that explicitly marks how felicitous speakers expect their utterances to be.
The present tense in "I am a very tall midget" is quite unambiguous, but there are languages that have aspectual distinctions in the copula in the past tense (Romance). "I was a very tall midget" is a little bit more complicated; e.g., in Portuguese, you could translate was as either fui or era (the former is perfective, the latter imperfective). Slavic languages however, where aspect features prominently, don't make this distinction in their copulae, to the best of my knowledge (this may be related to the fact their perfective/imperfective distinction hinges more on telicity*, whereas in Romance languages boundedness seems to be the key).
*Auto-correct suggests 'felicity' for 'telicity', and now I want to create a language that explicitly marks how felicitous speakers expect their utterances to be.
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Telicity makes more sense, so I'll go with that. Thanks for the input.David Rabinowitz wrote:Just be careful what the actual distinction is. "Perfective" and "imperfective" are wildly imprecise.
The present tense in "I am a very tall midget" is quite unambiguous, but there are languages that have aspectual distinctions in the copula in the past tense (Romance). "I was a very tall midget" is a little bit more complicated; e.g., in Portuguese, you could translate was as either fui or era (the former is perfective, the latter imperfective). Slavic languages however, where aspect features prominently, don't make this distinction in their copulae, to the best of my knowledge (this may be related to the fact their perfective/imperfective distinction hinges more on telicity*, whereas in Romance languages boundedness seems to be the key).
*Auto-correct suggests 'felicity' for 'telicity', and now I want to create a language that explicitly marks how felicitous speakers expect their utterances to be.
~$ snappdragon
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
You could also simply not have aspect distinctions in the copula. Both Mandarin and Cantonese have verbal aspect markers in general, but don't have any for the copula.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Just some things to add:
As David Rabinowitz already alluded to, the range of function of aspect is going to be language dependent. Copulae seem especially versatile in languages that mark aspect.
Usually it's best to deal with these matters by looking at TMA systems as a whole. In your particular system, you may be dealing with unchartered territory. When I was studying aspect for some research I was doing, the only languages I could find that were marked solely for aspect that research had been done on were Semitic languages. Even in these cases, it's clear that tense and modality are caught up in 'aspect.' The perfective verb in Arabic, for example, also seems to have a default past tense. Some argue that this affects the imperfective verb such that, in at least part of the history of Arabic, it is actually semi-imperfective, bounded at the beginning of the action and unbounded at the end of the action. At the same time, it takes some acrobatics to use the perfective to refer to the non-past.
The Semitic languages all also have a perfect aspect, which is a retrospectively bound aspect. (That is, it refers to an event in the past with current relevance). With phrases like "I am a very tall midget" or "You are a very odd person," the choice between expressing them with perfect aspect ("I am become a very tall midget" and "You are become a very odd person") or imperfective aspect ("I am being a very tall midget" and "You are being a very odd person") can be either ambiguous and arbitrary.
So! On the bright side, you have a lot of leeway. But the down side is that you have to figure out what exactly you mean by perfective/imperfective, and define their functions. I recommend Comrie's book on Aspect, if you're interested in a survey of aspect. It's both a seminal work and short. I read half the book in one sitting.
As David Rabinowitz already alluded to, the range of function of aspect is going to be language dependent. Copulae seem especially versatile in languages that mark aspect.
Usually it's best to deal with these matters by looking at TMA systems as a whole. In your particular system, you may be dealing with unchartered territory. When I was studying aspect for some research I was doing, the only languages I could find that were marked solely for aspect that research had been done on were Semitic languages. Even in these cases, it's clear that tense and modality are caught up in 'aspect.' The perfective verb in Arabic, for example, also seems to have a default past tense. Some argue that this affects the imperfective verb such that, in at least part of the history of Arabic, it is actually semi-imperfective, bounded at the beginning of the action and unbounded at the end of the action. At the same time, it takes some acrobatics to use the perfective to refer to the non-past.
The Semitic languages all also have a perfect aspect, which is a retrospectively bound aspect. (That is, it refers to an event in the past with current relevance). With phrases like "I am a very tall midget" or "You are a very odd person," the choice between expressing them with perfect aspect ("I am become a very tall midget" and "You are become a very odd person") or imperfective aspect ("I am being a very tall midget" and "You are being a very odd person") can be either ambiguous and arbitrary.
So! On the bright side, you have a lot of leeway. But the down side is that you have to figure out what exactly you mean by perfective/imperfective, and define their functions. I recommend Comrie's book on Aspect, if you're interested in a survey of aspect. It's both a seminal work and short. I read half the book in one sitting.
The Marshlandic Scratchpad
Featuring: An Intro to Sociolinguistics
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Featuring: An Intro to Sociolinguistics
-Sebastic (Semitic)-
-Vlachian/Μλός βλάχεαν-
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
One of my earlier languages was marked for the present emotional state of the speaker. (It was spoken by non-humans, and these markers were internalized by the speakers in such a way that misusing them would come across rather like a human faking a yawn--possible but frequently unconvincing. I should reboot that language some time...)David Rabinowitz wrote:*Auto-correct suggests 'felicity' for 'telicity', and now I want to create a language that explicitly marks how felicitous speakers expect their utterances to be.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Surprising, considering Chinese.Gúmmíkjúklingurinn wrote:When I was studying aspect for some research I was doing, the only languages I could find that were marked solely for aspect that research had been done on were Semitic languages.
If we're doing book recommendations, I'd recommend Xiao and McEnery's Aspect in Mandarin Chinese, which goes into detail on all the aspect markers ("actual" -le, durative -zhe, progressive zai-, continuative -xiaqu...), and even on the usage of no aspect marker at all.
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Well I've already started digging this hole so might as well go deeper. Who knows, I might dig all the way to linguistic China. I'm going to go the way the Slavic languages define their aspects (telicity, see above posts) but besides that I'm unsure. *grabs shovel* Time to dig for information I guess.Gúmmíkjúklingurinn wrote:Just some things to add:
As David Rabinowitz already alluded to, the range of function of aspect is going to be language dependent. Copulae seem especially versatile in languages that mark aspect.
Usually it's best to deal with these matters by looking at TMA systems as a whole. In your particular system, you may be dealing with unchartered territory. When I was studying aspect for some research I was doing, the only languages I could find that were marked solely for aspect that research had been done on were Semitic languages. Even in these cases, it's clear that tense and modality are caught up in 'aspect.' The perfective verb in Arabic, for example, also seems to have a default past tense. Some argue that this affects the imperfective verb such that, in at least part of the history of Arabic, it is actually semi-imperfective, bounded at the beginning of the action and unbounded at the end of the action. At the same time, it takes some acrobatics to use the perfective to refer to the non-past.
The Semitic languages all also have a perfect aspect, which is a retrospectively bound aspect. (That is, it refers to an event in the past with current relevance). With phrases like "I am a very tall midget" or "You are a very odd person," the choice between expressing them with perfect aspect ("I am become a very tall midget" and "You are become a very odd person") or imperfective aspect ("I am being a very tall midget" and "You are being a very odd person") can be either ambiguous and arbitrary.
So! On the bright side, you have a lot of leeway. But the down side is that you have to figure out what exactly you mean by perfective/imperfective, and define their functions. I recommend Comrie's book on Aspect, if you're interested in a survey of aspect. It's both a seminal work and short. I read half the book in one sitting.
~$ snappdragon
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Alternatively you could make your copulas just inflect for tense alone, or perhaps the normal aspectual distinction could be converted into a pure tense distinction. You could use similar tricks with other stative verbs as well if that's what you use for adjective-like functions.
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
I'll keep this in mind as an option *continues digging*Frislander wrote:Alternatively you could make your copulas just inflect for tense alone, or perhaps the normal aspectual distinction could be converted into a pure tense distinction. You could use similar tricks with other stative verbs as well if that's what you use for adjective-like functions.
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Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
What I have done in a number of my languages is to have a contrast between a perfect, i.e. a past perfective, and an imperfect, i.e. a non-past imperfective - but at the same time had the use of auxiliary verbs to form other combinations of aspect and tense, e.g. the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with an imperfect main verb to form a past imperfective and the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with a perfect main verb to form a pluperfect perfective. (Note that in this language all verbs are always marked for perfect versus imperfect, even when non-finite, except for stative verbs that are always imperfect - except they too can be made past imperfective with an auxiliary verbs.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Does that language have non-past perfectives?Travis B. wrote:What I have done in a number of my languages is to have a contrast between a perfect, i.e. a past perfective, and an imperfect, i.e. a non-past imperfective - but at the same time had the use of auxiliary verbs to form other combinations of aspect and tense, e.g. the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with an imperfect main verb to form a past imperfective and the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with a perfect main verb to form a pluperfect perfective. (Note that in this language all verbs are always marked for perfect versus imperfect, even when non-finite, except for stative verbs that are always imperfect - except they too can be made past imperfective with an auxiliary verbs.)
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Perfectives are, by implication, past because they describe a completed action; that's why in some languages perfectives have been known to become a past tense.Pole, the wrote:Does that language have non-past perfectives?Travis B. wrote:What I have done in a number of my languages is to have a contrast between a perfect, i.e. a past perfective, and an imperfect, i.e. a non-past imperfective - but at the same time had the use of auxiliary verbs to form other combinations of aspect and tense, e.g. the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with an imperfect main verb to form a past imperfective and the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with a perfect main verb to form a pluperfect perfective. (Note that in this language all verbs are always marked for perfect versus imperfect, even when non-finite, except for stative verbs that are always imperfect - except they too can be made past imperfective with an auxiliary verbs.)
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
I think you're confusing “perfect” with “perfective”. Perfective can be used in non-past context — the closest equivalent in English would be the “simple” tenses of non-stative verbs (‘I jumped off…’, ‘Now, I jump off…’, ‘I will jump off…’).Zaarin wrote:Perfectives are, by implication, past because they describe a completed action; that's why in some languages perfectives have been known to become a past tense.
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Ah, quite right. I always get (im)perfect/(im)perfective mixed up.Pole, the wrote:I think you're confusing “perfect” with “perfective”. Perfective can be used in non-past context — the closest equivalent in English would be the “simple” tenses of non-stative verbs (‘I jumped off…’, ‘Now, I jump off…’, ‘I will jump off…’).Zaarin wrote:Perfectives are, by implication, past because they describe a completed action; that's why in some languages perfectives have been known to become a past tense.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Except it's not true of perfects either. For one thing, perfects don't have to describe a completed action: "I've been working on this for six days now!" does not entail that you've necessarily finished working. And for another, you certainly can have non-past perfects. "By the time you read this, I will have completed my mission".Zaarin wrote:Ah, quite right. I always get (im)perfect/(im)perfective mixed up.Pole, the wrote:I think you're confusing “perfect” with “perfective”. Perfective can be used in non-past context — the closest equivalent in English would be the “simple” tenses of non-stative verbs (‘I jumped off…’, ‘Now, I jump off…’, ‘I will jump off…’).Zaarin wrote:Perfectives are, by implication, past because they describe a completed action; that's why in some languages perfectives have been known to become a past tense.
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
I believe in the LCK it said that perfect aspect is used to refer to past or future events with present relevance or consequence. So it can refer to an action that hasn't even happened yet.Salmoneus wrote:Except it's not true of perfects either. For one thing, perfects don't have to describe a completed action: "I've been working on this for six days now!" does not entail that you've necessarily finished working. And for another, you certainly can have non-past perfects. "By the time you read this, I will have completed my mission".Zaarin wrote:Ah, quite right. I always get (im)perfect/(im)perfective mixed up.Pole, the wrote:I think you're confusing “perfect” with “perfective”. Perfective can be used in non-past context — the closest equivalent in English would be the “simple” tenses of non-stative verbs (‘I jumped off…’, ‘Now, I jump off…’, ‘I will jump off…’).Zaarin wrote:Perfectives are, by implication, past because they describe a completed action; that's why in some languages perfectives have been known to become a past tense.
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Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Actually, where I said non-past I mean present above; but yes, there is no present perfective. Things such as performatives that are semantically present perfective are still morphologically imperfect. However, an auxiliary "go" can be used to form a periphrasic future, and it can be used with a perfect verb to form a future perfective and an imperfect verb to form a future imperfective.Zaarin wrote:Perfectives are, by implication, past because they describe a completed action; that's why in some languages perfectives have been known to become a past tense.Pole, the wrote:Does that language have non-past perfectives?Travis B. wrote:What I have done in a number of my languages is to have a contrast between a perfect, i.e. a past perfective, and an imperfect, i.e. a non-past imperfective - but at the same time had the use of auxiliary verbs to form other combinations of aspect and tense, e.g. the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with an imperfect main verb to form a past imperfective and the use of a perfect "do" auxiliary with a perfect main verb to form a pluperfect perfective. (Note that in this language all verbs are always marked for perfect versus imperfect, even when non-finite, except for stative verbs that are always imperfect - except they too can be made past imperfective with an auxiliary verbs.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
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Re: Copulas (and possibly more) in Aspect-inflected Language
Thank you.mèþru wrote:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43982&p=1108951
~$ snappdragon
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.
Linguistic novice, worldbuilding newbie. Also, wants to be a game developer.