The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Pole, the]

I know the Dutch pronunciation, but how does one pronounce fluyt in English? My best guesses are /flɛɪ̯t/ /flaɪ̯t/ /flɔɪ̯t/, but I can't seem to find any definite information...

I'd use /flaɪ̯t/. Other similar words/names: Huygens, Kuiper.

Huh, I knew Kuiper was pronounced with /aɪ̯/, but I've always pronounced Huygens with /ɔɪ̯/--and Wikipedia does offer that as a second pronunciation...

I'm used to Huygens with /oj/. But that's mostly because reading it phonetically in Polish would result in /xuj-/, with means you can guess what.

[Pole, the]

Do you distinguish between "vial" and "vile"?

[Lich]

Do you distinguish between "vial" and "vile"?

Yes, I think so. I pronounce vial more or less as /ˈvajəl/, and vile as /vai̯l/. The difference is rather prosodic, though, as I put emphasis on the first syllable in the former, and less stress in general on the latter. Although the more I think of it, they're rather similar to my tongue.

[Travis B.]

I pronounce the two identically, as [vaːe̯jɯ(ː)] or [va(ː)ɤ̯].

[vokzhen]

next

[kst̚]. In allegro speech, the /t/ may be dropped.

cluster

[kʰɫ]. The /l/ is probably partly devoiced, but definitely not fully.

former expansion

[ɚ.ɛksp] ~ [ɚ.ɪksp]. No resyllabification and no cluster simplification.

I agree with these, with the addendum that /k/ is allophonically backer before /l/, without actually reaching /q/.

Do you distinguish between "vial" and "vile"?

Nope.

[ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪]

Stops and syllabification (Places interesting for me are underlined):
next, cluster, former expansion
EDIT: also hurry

I remind you of it, I'd like to see pronunciation of anybody with glottalization. Of course I don't want to force you to write, I don't want to be rude but in my opinion English is interesting.
By the way, what is the pronunciation of "don't" and "won't"? Wiktionary says they have the GOAT vowel, but I was taught to pronounce it with the same vowel as "shop". Also, as I have heard people pronouncing <th> as dental fricatives, I haven't encountered (correct?) ones not saying something like [dɔnt] (very broad transcription).

[Zaarin]

Stops and syllabification (Places interesting for me are underlined):
next, cluster, former expansion
EDIT: also hurry

I remind you of it, I'd like to see pronunciation of anybody with glottalization. Of course I don't want to force you to write, I don't want to be rude but in my opinion English is interesting.
By the way, what is the pronunciation of "don't" and "won't"? Wiktionary says they have the GOAT vowel, but I was taught to pronounce it with the same vowel as "shop". Also, as I have heard people pronouncing <th> as dental fricatives, I haven't encountered (correct?) ones not saying something like [dɔnt] (very broad transcription).

Most Americans, including myself, debuccalize coronal stops before /n/, so there would be no glottalization in these examples. My pronunciation is the same as linguoboy's. Also:

don't [dɔʊnt˺~dɔʊnʔ]
won't [wɔʊnt˺~wɔʊnʔ]

Chances are the /t/ reappears before vowels:

don't answer [dɔʊnt ænsɹ̩ˁ] but
don't go [dɔʊnt˺ gɔʊ]

I've never heard either of these with /ɑ~ɒ~ɔ/ from a native speaker, however.

[Imralu]

If you pronounce "won't" with the vowel in "shop", you're saying "want" (or the much rarer word "wont")." Don't" and "won't" are with the GOAT vowel.

Also, wow, I never realised that my /k/ is backer before /l/. I've never seen that mentioned but now that it's been pointed out, it's definitely true.

[Zaarin]

If you pronounce "won't" with the vowel in "shop", you're saying "want" (or the much rarer word "wont")." Don't" and "won't" are with the GOAT vowel.

I'm pretty sure wont is homophonous with won't--because I pronounced it like want before learning otherwise. :p Yes, I actually use wont, but I have a fondness for archaisms.

[linguoboy]

Also:

don't [dɔʊnt˺~dɔʊnʔ]
won't [wɔʊnt˺~wɔʊnʔ]

Chances are the /t/ reappears before vowels:

don't answer [dɔʊnt ænsɹ̩ˁ] but
don't go [dɔʊnt˺ gɔʊ]

I've never heard either of these with /ɑ~ɒ~ɔ/ from a native speaker, however.

Same to all, except that I have glottalisation in all positions (i.e. even before vowels) and the /n/ may appear only as (partial) nasalisation on the preceding vowel, i.e. [doʊ̯̃ʔg̥oʊ][*].

Also, wow, I never realised that my /k/ is backer before /l/. I've never seen that mentioned but now that it's been pointed out, it's definitely true.

Yeah, it never occurred to me either, but it's really striking. (I didn't even realise I had [ɫ] in that cluster until I sounded it out. I've always associated [ɫ] in onsets with L2 speakers and Scots.

[*] I'm going nuts here trying to figure out the nucleus of those diphthongs. Time to run some spectrograms again.

[Imralu]

I didn't even realise I had [ɫ] in that cluster until I sounded it out. I've always associated [ɫ] in onsets with L2 speakers and Scots.

Australians have it too. According to an unsourced sentence on Wikipedia, /l/ can always be "dark" in North America, Australia and New Zealand. My stereotypical ideas about accents are that the initial /l/ is very bright in England but definitely brighter (less velarised) in America than in Australia.

[ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪]

If you pronounce "won't" with the vowel in "shop", you're saying "want" (or the much rarer word "wont")." Don't" and "won't" are with the GOAT vowel.

Well, I think Polish are suggested by the spelling of these words and, especially "don't" I think, they're pronounced very quickly so we mishear it. I think now it was funny that I and my schoolmates made fun of the sentences "I won't want it." and "Where were you?" as these word pairs are taught to be the same. Not that teachers state they're pronounced the same but they don't make any difference between them. (Still correct?)

I think I'd like to tell somebody about the "Polish-school English" to find any other errors in it. What do you think?

[Imralu]

Wikipedia has some very bizarre claims sometimes.

T-glottalisation
Some speakers use a glottal stop as an allophone of /t/ in final position, for example trait, habit; or in medial position, such as a /t/ followed by a syllabic /n/ is often replaced by a glottal stop, for example button or fatten. Alveolar pronunciations nevertheless predominate.

I have NEVER heard an Australian replace a /t/ with a glottal stop* except when imitating various accents of the British Isles. A glottalised, unreleased "t" (OMFG, where are the square brackets on a German keyboard? Oh, found them ... still miffed that the left and right alt keys work differently!) is pretty usual, but not a glottal stop with no movement of the tongue to the alveolar position. It sounds so different.

* OK, we do pronounce /t/ as a glottal stop after /n/ as in "doesn't" versus "dozen", although arguably, since the tongue is already in the alveolar position when this happens, it's the only thing that could really happen with a glottalised unreleased t ... basically, we just cut the /n/ off abruptly with a glottal stop ... but after a vowel, or before a syllabic /n/, never!

Unless it's actually a thing, like, 93 year old gents called Clem who live in Albury-Wodonga, I'm pretty sure this claim on Wikipedia is from someone thinking a glottalised unreleased /t/ is a glottal stop.

[Imralu]

If you pronounce "won't" with the vowel in "shop", you're saying "want" (or the much rarer word "wont")." Don't" and "won't" are with the GOAT vowel.

Well, I think Polish are suggested by the spelling of these words and, especially "don't" I think, they're pronounced very quickly so we mishear it. I think now it was funny that I and my schoolmates made fun of the sentences "I won't want it." and "Where were you?" as these word pairs are taught to be the same. Not that teachers state they're pronounced the same but they don't make any difference between them. (Still correct?)

I think I'd like to tell somebody about the "Polish-school English" to find any other errors in it. What do you think?

Years ago, my mother bought the Michel Thomas Italian pack (I think just a starter pack, not this whole thing here) and Mr Thomas went into this whole strange explanation about how the word "to" helps us distinguish between "won't go" and "want to go". He's sitting in a room with two native English speakers, the subjects in his method, and I was just waiting for one of them to say "well, actually, they're pronounced differently as well ..." but they didn't. And then I was thinking, since he is (was? I think he died) a native French speaker, I didn't know that I could trust him to know all the distinctions in Italian, since he was apparently so falsely confident of his English. (In the end it was apathy that stopped me listening though.)

I'm guessing you and your schoolmates were actually saying "I want want it" and "Where where you?", yeah? Yeah, maybe post a list of words you think are homophones. It might even be worthy of its own thread. I used to get my ESL students to come up with lists of homophones and often blew their minds when they found out that "bed" and "bad" are pronounced differently, or "warm" and "worm" etc. Judging by the puns he makes, I'm pretty sure my flatmate would struggle to notice the distinctions I make between "bad, bed, bat, bet, bade" (not that I ever say the last word because it's archaic).

[linguoboy]

I think now it was funny that I and my schoolmates made fun of the sentences "I won't want it." and "Where were you?" as these word pairs are taught to be the same.

That first one kind of blows my mind. The vowels are so different IMD (/ow/ vs /ə/) that I would never expect to hear them confused. I would've expected [wɔunt want], i.e. as if spelled łołnt łant. But then I didn't realise it was so common to unround Polish /o/.

[ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪]

If you pronounce "won't" with the vowel in "shop", you're saying "want" (or the much rarer word "wont")." Don't" and "won't" are with the GOAT vowel.

Well, I think Polish are suggested by the spelling of these words and, especially "don't" I think, they're pronounced very quickly so we mishear it. I think now it was funny that I and my schoolmates made fun of the sentences "I won't want it." and "Where were you?" as these word pairs are taught to be the same. Not that teachers state they're pronounced the same but they don't make any difference between them. (Still correct?)

I think I'd like to tell somebody about the "Polish-school English" to find any other errors in it. What do you think?

I'm guessing you and your schoolmates were actually saying "I want want it" and "Where where you?", yeah? Yeah, maybe post a list of words you think are homophones. It might even be worthy of its own thread. I used to get my ESL students to come up with lists of homophones and often blew their minds when they found out that "bed" and "bad" are pronounced differently, or "warm" and "worm" etc. Judging by the puns he makes, I'm pretty sure my flatmate would struggle to notice the distinctions I make between "bad, bed, bat, bet, bade" (not that I ever say the last word because it's archaic).

In the first case you're right but in the second (can "former" and "latter" be here?) I can't say to which lexical set "where" and "were" vowel belongs. I think that if somebody made a description of "Polish English" he could say that SQUARE, NURSE, LETTER and DRESS (with some exceptions as words ending in unstressed "-or" or "-ar") sets are merged as /ɛɹ/ and /ɛ/, sometimes being a bit centralized before /ɹ/.

[ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪]

I think now it was funny that I and my schoolmates made fun of the sentences "I won't want it." and "Where were you?" as these word pairs are taught to be the same.

That first one kind of blows my mind. The vowels are so different IMD (/ow/ vs /ə/) that I would never expect to hear them confused. I would've expected [wɔunt want], i.e. as if spelled łołnt łant. But then I didn't realise it was so common to unround Polish /o/.

It's more like [wɔnt]. Most Polish people don't pronounce coda /w/ as [u̯] but definitely as [w], so in the pronunciation which most approaches GA is [wɔwnt], with a very difficult consonant cluster. We don't have diphthongs, we can't move our tongues softly while producing vowels, so maybe having some "evidence" in spelling, teachers in the past changed the pronunciation to easier.
Also, most (excluding less interested in learning English) people round short <a> after <w(h)>, with one exception - what, very often having unrounded, (I think) American vowel.

[Travis B.]

I didn't even realise I had [ɫ] in that cluster until I sounded it out. I've always associated [ɫ] in onsets with L2 speakers and Scots.

Australians have it too. According to an unsourced sentence on Wikipedia, /l/ can always be "dark" in North America, Australia and New Zealand. My stereotypical ideas about accents are that the initial /l/ is very bright in England but definitely brighter (less velarised) in America than in Australia.

The /l/ here in southeastern Wisconsin is very dark, i.e. it is normally vocalized to one of [ɰ w ɯ̞ ʊ ɤ o] depending on position and environment - even in onsets - except when careful and stressed or geminate, where then it is [ʟ̞]. I can easily pronounce a very light [l]... but it sounds very foreign, like English spoken with a German accent, e.g.

[Travis B.]

I have heard of non-native learners of English seriously learning English with a six-vowel system, /i e a ə o u/, with /aɪ eɪ aʊ oʊ ɔɪ/ presumably being mapped onto /aj ej aw ow oj/... On Unilang I once remember people arguing over whether TRAP was supposed to be /a/ or /e/...

[Travis B.]

don't [tõʔ]
won't [wõʔ]
don't answer [tõn ɛ̃nʲtʲsʲʁ̩(ː)]
don't go: [tõʔ ko(ː)]

(Don't ask - my English is weird.)

[Sumelic]

If you pronounce "won't" with the vowel in "shop", you're saying "want" (or the much rarer word "wont")." Don't" and "won't" are with the GOAT vowel.

I'm pretty sure wont is homophonous with won't--because I pronounced it like want before learning otherwise. :p Yes, I actually use wont, but I have a fondness for archaisms.

And I pronounce "wont" as /wʌnt/: i.e. "wunt", same vowel as "won" or "wonder". It does come from Old English wun-.

Stops and syllabification (Places interesting for me are underlined):
next, cluster, former expansion
EDIT: also hurry

I remind you of it, I'd like to see pronunciation of anybody with glottalization. Of course I don't want to force you to write, I don't want to be rude but in my opinion English is interesting.
By the way, what is the pronunciation of "don't" and "won't"? Wiktionary says they have the GOAT vowel, but I was taught to pronounce it with the same vowel as "shop". Also, as I have heard people pronouncing <th> as dental fricatives, I haven't encountered (correct?) ones not saying something like [dɔnt] (very broad transcription).

I just say next [kst̚], cluster [kʰl] = [kl̥] or [kl̥l] (I don't know exactly when the voicing starts), former expansion [ɚɪksp] (there is an r-like glide between /ɚ/ and /ɪ/, but it's not the same as a phonemic, syllable-initial /r/, just as the w-like glide in "the lesser of two evils" is not the same as a phonemic, syllable-initial /w/).

hurry: [hɚi], more or less. Again, there is an r-like glide that could be considered to be "ambisyllabic", but it's lighter than a syllable-initial /r/, comparable I think to the w-like glide in words like "showy". Phonemically, [ɚ] could be analyzed as /ər./; technically, though, [oʊ] could also be analyzed phonemically as /əw./. I use the same vowel in "furry".

That reminds me, I guess there is a gap in British English for the sequence /ʊr/? It seems like in theory, the general phonotactics of BrEng should allow it, like /ɛr/ etc, but I guess there are a lot of gaps relating to the distribution of /ʊ/ anyway, it's such an infrequent vowel phoneme (I also can't think of any words with /ʊb/).

I have never heard of any native speaker using any vowel but GOAT in "don't" and "won't". It would shock me to hear anything else.

[Znex]

I have never heard of any native speaker using any vowel but GOAT in "don't" and "won't". It would shock me to hear anything else.

Actually now that I think about it, I feel like they might be pronounced with the MONK vowel in some dialects, especially when unstressed. One dialect that's coming to my mind, though it might not be right, is AAE (African American English).

[Pole, the]

That first one kind of blows my mind. The vowels are so different IMD (/ow/ vs /ə/) that I would never expect to hear them confused. I would've expected [wɔunt want], i.e. as if spelled łołnt łant. But then I didn't realise it was so common to unround Polish /o/.

Actually, Polish /ɔ/ can range from anything like [ɒ] to anything like [o]. Add the lack of length distinction. Voila, you get Polish natives unable to distinguish [wɒnt] (a standard RP realization of “want”) and [woːnt] (not an unusual US realization of “won't”).

Also consider that something like [ɔun] might get reinterpreted as [ɔũ], which does not (normally) contrast with [ɔn] before a stop in Polish.

I tried it myself, with the sets of Forvo recordings. Assuming the audios are accurate and the realizations are non-exaggerated, here's how I would identify the vowels without referring to my knowledge about English phonology:
(These are how I would fit these sounds into Polish phonology, not how I would recreate their phonetic value.)

want

SeanMauch, US — sounds weird, is it fronted?
TopQuark, UK — a normal Polish /ɔ/
BritishEnglish, UK — a normal Polish /ɔ/
x_WoofyWoo_x, UK — actually, this one hits all the right sounds for my brain to recognize it as Polish /wɔnt/ (e.g. a fragment of /bwɔnt/)
falconfling, US — a normal Polish /ɔ/
griffeblanche, US — off, not /ɔ/ but not /a/ either
ciaranbyrne, Ireland — a normal Polish /a/
sarahjaynelong, NZ — a normal Polish /ɔ/
Matt3799, US — almost an /a/, but a bit off; maybe too front?
zekimueller, UK — a normal Polish /ɔ/
Howard, US — a bit like /ɔ/, but off
SimonAu, Australia — a normal Polish /ɔ/, maybe a bit too high

won't

angelareza, US — a longer Polish /ɔ/ (or /ɔũ/)
zeekewlmin, US — /ɔw/ (or /ɔũ/)
TristanJaimes, UK — weird, evidently too front
mishmash, Ireland — /ɔw/ (or /ɔũ/)
mulesrule, US — /ɔw/ (or /ɔũ/)

don't

TristanJaimes, UK — weird
JessicaMS, US — a longer Polish /ɔ/
Zeroelle, US — a longer Polish /ɔ/
deadowl, US — a longer Polish /ɔ/
LadCoply, US — too front, the result is something between /ɛw/, /aw/ and /ɔw/
greengobbie92, Australia — like /ɔw/, but too front
gabo864, US — /ɔw/ (or /ɔũ/)
jl447, US — /ɔũ/ or /ɔ̃/, but sounds artificial for Polish, more like French
leighmke, US — /ɔw/ (or /ɔũ/)
HarveyCraig, UK — like /ɔw/, but too front
emsr2d2, UK — like single /ɔ/, but too front
delibes, US — a longer Polish /ɔ/
meadsey, UK — like /ɔw/, but too front


Concerning “where” vs “were”, there is the additional problem of rhoticity in most dialects of English, which can't be expressed in Polish, but I tried anyway:

where

floridagirl, US — doesn't fit; closest would be /ɛ/, but it's way too high, or /ɛj/, but it's too monophthongal
TopQuark, UK — like /ɛa/, but the start is a bit off (too back?)
Slick, US — like floridagirl
Shannon15, UK — almost clear /ɛ/
falconfling, US — like /ɨ/, but too front; or like floridagirl
CarlyleShaw, China — almost clear /ɛ/
Matt3799, US — like floridagirl
mikebill, US — like /ɨ/, but too front; or like floridagirl
Lagertha, UK — almost clear /ɛ/
mmdills22, US — like /ɛj/ or like floridagirl, but even higher
lemony, Australia — like /ɛ/ or /ɨ/
JessicaMS, US — like /ɛj/ or like floridagirl
tipit, US — like /ɨ/ or like floridagirl
bjhinton, US — like /ɛj/
rkaup, UK — like floridagirl

were

anakat, US — like /ɨ/ or /ɛ/
TopQuark, UK — like /ɨ/, a bit too open
Slick, US — like /ɨ/
wkshimself, US — doesn't fit, too back, sounds like something between /ɛ/ or /ɔ/
tipit, US — way too back, sounds almost like /u/ or /ɔ/
SeanMauch, US — doesn't fit, too back
mikebill, US — like /ɨ/, a bit too open

---

tl;dr: learning English sucks when your L1 doesn't have like a gajillion vowels

[Travis B.]

That reminds me, I guess there is a gap in British English for the sequence /ʊr/? It seems like in theory, the general phonotactics of BrEng should allow it, like /ɛr/ etc, but I guess there are a lot of gaps relating to the distribution of /ʊ/ anyway, it's such an infrequent vowel phoneme (I also can't think of any words with /ʊb/).

Historically English English had /ʊr/ (derived from /uːr/ - earlier /ʊr/ had already merged into what is now /ɜː/ - which was lost in the process), but in very many English English varieties this has been lowered and (of course) nonrhoticized so as to merge with /ɔː/ (shall we call this the sure-shore merger?) IIRC. Contrast with many NAE varieties, where /ʊr/ in many cases was either re-tensed to [u˞] (e.g. in tour) or reduced to [ɜ˞] (e.g. in cure for many), even though some dialects did also lower it to [ɔ˞] (i.e. our sure-shore merger).

[Sumelic]

That reminds me, I guess there is a gap in British English for the sequence /ʊr/? It seems like in theory, the general phonotactics of BrEng should allow it, like /ɛr/ etc, but I guess there are a lot of gaps relating to the distribution of /ʊ/ anyway, it's such an infrequent vowel phoneme (I also can't think of any words with /ʊb/).

Historically English English had /ʊr/ (derived from /uːr/ - earlier /ʊr/ had already merged into what is now /ɜː/ - which was lost in the process), but in very many English English varieties this has been lowered and (of course) nonrhoticized so as to merge with /ɔː/ (shall we call this the sure-shore merger?) IIRC. Contrast with many NAE varieties, where /ʊr/ in many cases was either re-tensed to [u˞] (e.g. in tour) or reduced to [ɜ˞] (e.g. in cure for many), even though some dialects did also lower it to [ɔ˞] (i.e. our sure-shore merger).

RP CURE (non-merged with NORTH/FORCE) is usually written /ʊə(r)/. I was wondering if there were any words with distinct /ʊr/, like how "serious" (with /ɪər/) contrasts with "Sirius" (with /ɪr/) in most British English accents.

I found one candidate so far: the OED does list /ˈbʊrəʊ/ as a possible British pronunciation of "burro". It's given after /ˈbʌrəʊ/, though, so I don't know if it's at all common.