My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlearn
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I've never heard "lellow", or heard of it before now.Io wrote:I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!
"Yeller" (or "yaller", for people who merge "celery" into "salary"), is very well-known, but I don't know how common the change is. My understanding is that it results from a neutralization of final unstressed /oʊ/ to /ə/, followed by changing word-final /ə/ in some words to /ər/ or /ɚ/. These changes are familar to most North American English speakers and common in some regional accents (a somewhat similar change is to turn the "happy" vowel to /ə/, most well-known with the state name "Missouri", pronounced by some as "Missoura").
It's a general process not confined to this one word: other words that can be affected are pillow > "piller", window > "winder", etc. It's mentioned in as occuring in "some Southern dialects, such as Appalachia and the Ozarks" in "R-Dissimilation in English", by Nancy Hall (2007, p. 30); an interesting fact is that this r-insertion is blocked for some speakers in the studied dialects after /rə/, as in arrow ("arra" rather than "arrer"), tomorrow (tomorra"), borrow ("borra").
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I've never heard "lellow" from an adult before. It's relatively common in the speech of young children, however.Io wrote:I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Yeah that sounds like a child who is just learning to pronounce /l/. Children who cant pronounce [l] will often substitute [w], [j], or a hiatus where the /l/ should be. Some of these words get internalized as having those sounds even though the child hears adults pronounce them properly. Then when they do master the pronunciation of the sound, they insert [l] even in places where it doesnt belong.linguoboy wrote:I've never heard "lellow" from an adult before. It's relatively common in the speech of young children, however.Io wrote:I was watching some show and there were two Texan women, one of them said "yeller" and the other (her sister) corrected her several times saying emphatically "yellow", I've heard some Southerners also say "lellow" for "yellow", just how common are these deviations?!
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
- Salmoneus
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Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?linguoboy wrote:My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Disyllabic pronunciations of words with /ɔɪ̯əl/ instead of /ɔɪ̯l/ are pretty common (especially in American English, perhaps?). Of course, most people do not distinguish /əl/, /ɪl/, and /l̩/, so you could write it as any of those. The important thing is that it is perceived as syllabic.Salmoneus wrote:Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?linguoboy wrote:My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
I have it. For me, I would say it is related to the collapse of "cruel"/"fool" and "real/meal", mostly in the opposite direction (e.g. "cruel" and "real" seem like monosyllables to me, although "dual" is still disyllabic for me).
The same applies to /aɪ(ə)l/, and to a lesser extent (for me, at least) to /aʊ(ə)l/. "Smiles" definitely feels disyllabic, while "owls" only kind of feels disyllabic. I guess also after rhotic vowels: "world" and "Karl" also kind of feel like disyllables, while "Charles" definitely feels like a disyllable. Obviously insertion of (ə) has existed for a long time before coda /r/, hence the standard British English distinction between "fire" and "fie".
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
It is quite normal in NAE at least to have disyllabic realizations of historical /aɪ̯(ə)l aʊ̯(ə)l ɔɪ̯(ə)l/; I actually am surprised that you do not have this, Sal.
(Conversely, it is normal here to have monosyllabic realizations of historical /iː(ə)l uː(ə)l eɪ̯(ə)l oʊ̯(ə)l/, and historical monosyllabic and disyllabic forms of these have invariably merged here.)
(Conversely, it is normal here to have monosyllabic realizations of historical /iː(ə)l uː(ə)l eɪ̯(ə)l oʊ̯(ə)l/, and historical monosyllabic and disyllabic forms of these have invariably merged here.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
My idiolect has sporadic smoothing before sonorants (a relic of my early years in Baldimer, Marilyn), so if I try to force myself to make these words truly monosyllabic, I'm liable to loose the offglide altogether (e.g. oil becomes a homophone for awl).
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I very frequently have smoothing of /aɪ̯l/ to [aɤ̯] rather than the expected [ae̯ɯ] (e.g. I'll [aɤ̯], mile [maɤ̯]). Somewhat less frequently I also have smoothing of /aʊ̯l/ to [ɑɤ̯] rather than the expected [ɑwʊ] (towel [tʰɑɤ̯]).
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
My french L1 make my whole pronunciation of my basic english something hazardous...
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
for a long time I couldn't pronounce Marlboro, like the name of the cigarettes, because it would always come out [maɹəɫbəɫə] (the dissimilation or assimilation of the second R to L, whichever it is, is a different thing of course). if I do it englishly, by dropping the first R, i can say it (like [mɑːlbəɹə]).Sumelic wrote:Disyllabic pronunciations of words with /ɔɪ̯əl/ instead of /ɔɪ̯l/ are pretty common (especially in American English, perhaps?). Of course, most people do not distinguish /əl/, /ɪl/, and /l̩/, so you could write it as any of those. The important thing is that it is perceived as syllabic.Salmoneus wrote:Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?linguoboy wrote:My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
I have it. For me, I would say it is related to the collapse of "cruel"/"fool" and "real/meal", mostly in the opposite direction (e.g. "cruel" and "real" seem like monosyllables to me, although "dual" is still disyllabic for me).
The same applies to /aɪ(ə)l/, and to a lesser extent (for me, at least) to /aʊ(ə)l/. "Smiles" definitely feels disyllabic, while "owls" only kind of feels disyllabic. I guess also after rhotic vowels: "world" and "Karl" also kind of feel like disyllables, while "Charles" definitely feels like a disyllable. Obviously insertion of (ə) has existed for a long time before coda /r/, hence the standard British English distinction between "fire" and "fie".
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
When I first heard of British Conservative politician Michael Gove, I had two guesses about how his surname is pronounced, and as it turned out, both were wrong. I thought that he would either be pronounced "Goh-vee", or like "dove", except with a "g" in place of the "d". But no, he's actually pronounced "Gohv". Silly me.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Reminds me that I have to pronounce thistle very consciously and slowly else it comes out [θɪθɫ̩], likewise with other instances of /θ...s/ (but not /s...θ/, interestingly).finlay wrote:for a long time I couldn't pronounce Marlboro, like the name of the cigarettes, because it would always come out [maɹəɫbəɫə] (the dissimilation or assimilation of the second R to L, whichever it is, is a different thing of course). if I do it englishly, by dropping the first R, i can say it (like [mɑːlbəɹə]).Sumelic wrote:Disyllabic pronunciations of words with /ɔɪ̯əl/ instead of /ɔɪ̯l/ are pretty common (especially in American English, perhaps?). Of course, most people do not distinguish /əl/, /ɪl/, and /l̩/, so you could write it as any of those. The important thing is that it is perceived as syllabic.Salmoneus wrote:Bisyllabic? You mean... you say "Doyle" as "doy-il"? (or doy-ul?) Or do you mean you pronounce the final 'e' or something?linguoboy wrote:My "Doyle" is bisyllabic and it sure as hell shouldn't sound like that.Salmoneus wrote:In English it's pronounced "doyle", and that seems more or less how it's pronounced on teanglann, and possibly on forvo, although the forvo versions are a bit harder to make out (partly because of the worse sound quality). Are you saying there shouldn't be an off-glide?
For me, "Doyle" and "Dáil" (in English) are monosyllabic and rhyme with "foil", "boil", "toil", etc.
I have it. For me, I would say it is related to the collapse of "cruel"/"fool" and "real/meal", mostly in the opposite direction (e.g. "cruel" and "real" seem like monosyllables to me, although "dual" is still disyllabic for me).
The same applies to /aɪ(ə)l/, and to a lesser extent (for me, at least) to /aʊ(ə)l/. "Smiles" definitely feels disyllabic, while "owls" only kind of feels disyllabic. I guess also after rhotic vowels: "world" and "Karl" also kind of feel like disyllables, while "Charles" definitely feels like a disyllable. Obviously insertion of (ə) has existed for a long time before coda /r/, hence the standard British English distinction between "fire" and "fie".
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
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Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
While RWBY Chibi recently I noticed some characters were saying flan like flarn, adding an r for some reason.
- Salmoneus
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- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I have no idea what the first half of that sentence is meant to mean, but yes, Americans apparently pronounce it "flarn" (but it's not a real /r/). Presumably they're following some "foreign foods must all have aaaaaarrrrr in them because it sounds pretentious" rule, to go along with parsta and the like.richard1631978 wrote:While RWBY Chibi recently I noticed some characters were saying flan like flarn, adding an r for some reason.
If you mean you heard someone say it with a real /r/, it may be someone trying to emulate that pronunciation and getting confused by the rhotic/nonrhotic distinction?
[Americans say it long and we say it short. But if we said it long, Americans might say it with /r/, because American /ar/ is what most often corresponds to our /A/.]
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I think there's a "watching" missing there.Salmoneus wrote:I have no idea what the first half of that sentence is meant to mean
JAL
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
This sounds really, really weird to me as an American, as we don't think of these words as having /r/ in them because the vast majority of us are (obviously) rhotic.Salmoneus wrote:I have no idea what the first half of that sentence is meant to mean, but yes, Americans apparently pronounce it "flarn" (but it's not a real /r/). Presumably they're following some "foreign foods must all have aaaaaarrrrr in them because it sounds pretentious" rule, to go along with parsta and the like.richard1631978 wrote:While RWBY Chibi recently I noticed some characters were saying flan like flarn, adding an r for some reason.
If you mean you heard someone say it with a real /r/, it may be someone trying to emulate that pronunciation and getting confused by the rhotic/nonrhotic distinction?
[Americans say it long and we say it short. But if we said it long, Americans might say it with /r/, because American /ar/ is what most often corresponds to our /A/.]
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Wtf? I've never heard anyone saying "flarn" for "flan." When I see "flan," I automatically think [flæn] but hear people saying [flɑn]. Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.
- Salmoneus
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Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
In the UK, yes; but a lot of Americans pronounce it with /ɑː/ (i.e. "ar"). That's the pronunciation Wikipedia gives, too.Vijay wrote: Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Oh OK, so that's what you meant by <ar>!Salmoneus wrote:In the UK, yes; but a lot of Americans pronounce it with /ɑː/ (i.e. "ar"). That's the pronunciation Wikipedia gives, too.Vijay wrote: Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Yes, but us Americans don't think "ar" when we hear /ɑː/.Salmoneus wrote:In the UK, yes; but a lot of Americans pronounce it with /ɑː/ (i.e. "ar"). That's the pronunciation Wikipedia gives, too.Vijay wrote: Pasta is just pasta, not parsta.
And what about words like bath in RP? Do you think of this as being "barth"?
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
- StrangerCoug
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- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Yeah. As an American, I find using <r> to transcribe a long vowel misleading, since my idiolect is rhotic.Travis B. wrote:Yes, but us Americans don't think "ar" when we hear /ɑː/.
Edit: Deleted the second line of Travis's post in the quote so mine wouldn't be misinterpreted as an answer to his question.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I don't pronounce "flan" and "pasta" the way I do to be pretentious, I pronounce them that way because it actually somewhat approximates how they're pronounced in the original languages.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Same here, because /ɑː/ IMD is normally plain [a], while /æ/ is normally the much fronter and higher [ɛ].gmalivuk wrote:I don't pronounce "flan" and "pasta" the way I do to be pretentious, I pronounce them that way because it actually somewhat approximates how they're pronounced in the original languages.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.