Sound Change Quickie Thread
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I don't think it's odd.
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Thanks.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
- StrangerCoug
- Avisaru
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Suppose I have a conculture where a significant minority speaks a conlang (let's call it Language A for the purposes of this question) with a (C)V(C) syllable structure whose consonant inventory is pretty much Skolt Sami plus /ʔ θ ç h/, but has only /a ə ɨ/ for its phonemic vowels. It's in contact with speakers of the conculture's majority language (call it language B), which has /a e i ə ɨ o u/ for its vowel inventory and otherwise isn't structurally far off from SAE. What allophonic processes are plausible for Language A that might cause speakers of Language B to perceive backness distinctions that don't really exist in Language A? (In other words, what might cause Language B's speakers to hear Language A's /ə/ as closer to a Language B /e/ or /o/, and similarly for Language A's /ɨ/?)
- Frislander
- Avisaru
- Posts: 836
- Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:34 am
- Location: The North
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Fronting when adjacent to palatals, rounding when adjacent to labials, backing adjacent to velars (less likely; I think this is attested but I'm not certain, it would certainly make sense).StrangerCoug wrote:Suppose I have a conculture where a significant minority speaks a conlang (let's call it Language A for the purposes of this question) with a (C)V(C) syllable structure whose consonant inventory is pretty much Skolt Sami plus /ʔ θ ç h/, but has only /a ə ɨ/ for its phonemic vowels. It's in contact with speakers of the conculture's majority language (call it language B), which has /a e i ə ɨ o u/ for its vowel inventory and otherwise isn't structurally far off from SAE. What allophonic processes are plausible for Language A that might cause speakers of Language B to perceive backness distinctions that don't really exist in Language A? (In other words, what might cause Language B's speakers to hear Language A's /ə/ as closer to a Language B /e/ or /o/, and similarly for Language A's /ɨ/?)
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Sounds that velar to glottal and in between tend to cause backing, while sounds that have some palatal quality tend to front. Labials cause rounding.
These are just tendencies though: Velars are less likely to cause backing than uvulars and other sounds further back, and think I saw at least one natlang grammar that said uvulars caused rounded front vowels!
[h] already exists as an allophone of /x/.
Here's an example I made up:
These are just tendencies though: Velars are less likely to cause backing than uvulars and other sounds further back, and think I saw at least one natlang grammar that said uvulars caused rounded front vowels!
Here's an example I made up:
- After /p b m f v/ ⟶ [ɒ̈ ɵ̞ ʉ]
Before /t d n t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ s z θ ð r l/ ⟶ [ä ə ɨ]
Before /ʃ ʒ j/ ⟶ [a e̞ i]
Before /c ɟ ɲ ʃ ʒ ç ʝ ʎ/ ⟶ [ɛ e i2]
Before /k ɡ ʔ ŋ x ɣ h w/ ⟶ [ɑ ɤ̞ ɯ]
Before /w/ ⟶ [ɒ o̞ u]
So now we have /ɨ/ [i i2 ɨ ʉ ɯ u], /ə/ [e e̞ ə ɵ̞ ɤ̞ o̞] and /ä/ [ɛ a ä ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ] - After nothing ⟶ [ɪ i ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ɯ̽ u e e̞ ə ɵ̞ ɤ̞ o̞ ɛ æ ä ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ]
After /p b t d k ɡ ʔ/ ⟶ [i i ɨ ʉ ɯ u e e ɘ ɵ ɤ o ɛ æ ɐ ɞ̞ ʌ̞ ɔ̞]
After /c ɟ/ ⟶ [i i i y ɯ̈ ü e e e ø ɤ̈ ö ɛ æ æ ɶ̽ ɑ̽ ɒ̽]
After /m n ŋ r l/ ⟶ [i̞ i ɨ ʉ ɯ u e e̞ ɜ ɞ ʌ ɔ ɛ æ ɐ ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ]
After /ɲ/⟶ [i i y ɯ̈ ü e e ë ø̈ ɤ̞̈ ö̞ ɛ æ æ̈ ɶ ɑ̈ ɒ̈2
After /t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ s z ʃ ʒ f v θ ð x ɣ h/ ⟶ [i̞ i ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ɯ̽ ʊ e̞ e̞ ɜ ɞ ʌ ɔ æ a ä ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ]
After /ʃ ʒ ç ʝ j ʎ/ ⟶ [i ɪ ʏ ɯ̽ ʊ e e ë ø̈ ɤ̞̈ ö̞ ɛ a a ɶ ɑ̈ ɒ̈2
After /w/ ⟶ [i̞ i ɪ̈ u u u e̞ e̞ ɜ ɔ ɔ ɔ æ a ä ɒ ɒ ɒ] - Assume [i ɨ y ɪ ʏ ɪ̈ e ø ë ø̈ ɘ e̞ ə ɛ ɜ æ æ̈ a ä] as Group 1 and the other values as Group 2
All vowels in Group 2 become Group 1 vowels if the first vowel of the word is a Group 1 vowel and vice versa - Language B borrows the word
[i y ɨ ʉ ɯ̈ ü ɯ u ɪ ʏ ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ɯ̽ ʊ e ø ë ø̈ ɘ ɤ̈ ö ɤ o e̞ ə ɵ̞ ɤ̞̈ ö̞ ɤ̞ o̞ ɛ ɜ æ æ̈ ɶ̽ ɐ ɞ̞ ɑ̽ ɒ̽ ʌ̞ ɔ̞ a ɶ ä ɒ̈ ɑ̈ ɒ̈2 ɑ ɒ] ⟶ /i i~u ɨ u ɨ u i u ɨ u ɨ u ɨ u e ə e~ə ə ə ə o ə o e ə ə ə o e ə ä ä ə ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä/
Last edited by mèþru on Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
- StrangerCoug
- Avisaru
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I had intended /h/ and /x/ to be separate phonemes, but hey, maybe they merge at some pointmèþru wrote:[h] already exists as an allophone of /x/.
Edited to add: Or even better, Language B speakers can't hear the difference between /x/ and /h/ and they get merged when it makes it way over to Language B. I'm not willing to say no...
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Edited post
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
- Frislander
- Avisaru
- Posts: 836
- Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:34 am
- Location: The North
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
When it comes to bilabial trills, I know they can originate from /b/ before rounded vowels and from /mb/ clusters, but does the alternative origin of bilabial stop + flap/trill sound reasonable as well?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Sure
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
- احمکي ارش-ھجن
- Avisaru
- Posts: 516
- Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:45 pm
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How would I be able to make /ɹ̩/ and /az/ cognates?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Language A: *əz > əɹ > ɹ̩احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:How would I be able to make /ɹ̩/ and /az/ cognates?
Language B: *əz > az
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
-
- Lebom
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:13 pm
- Location: Ohio
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Most lenitions of /s/ seem to take /z/ or /h/ as initial pathways; i.e.
/s/ > /h/ > /∅/
/s/ > /z/ > /ʐ/ or /r/ or /ɹ/
Can anyone think of any other outcomes for lenited /s/, or any other initial pathways? Especially in a voiced environment?
/s/ > /h/ > /∅/
/s/ > /z/ > /ʐ/ or /r/ or /ɹ/
Can anyone think of any other outcomes for lenited /s/, or any other initial pathways? Especially in a voiced environment?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How would you approach the following ones?
/k/ → /tsk/ // V[+short]_{a o u}, V[+short]_$
/k/ → /ts/ // _{a o u}
/θ/ → /tx/
/ks/ → /x/
/k/ → /tsk/ // V[+short]_{a o u}, V[+short]_$
/k/ → /ts/ // _{a o u}
/θ/ → /tx/
/ks/ → /x/
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
θ ---> ṭ (dental) ---> t (known from some AmEng dialects) ---> tʰ ----> txPole, the wrote:How would you approach the following ones?
/θ/ → /tx/
Any preeixisting /t/ would have to be sheltered from the change by a Duke-of-York sound shift, since /tx/ without bare /t/ would be very peculiar.
Similar. ks----> kx ("strongly aspirated" ) -----> x/ks/ → /x/
Others not likely without similar shifts affecting /k/ in other environments. How big is the pohonology?
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
It looks roughly like that:Soap wrote:Others not likely without similar shifts affecting /k/ in other environments. How big is the pohonology?
/m n/
/p b t d (tʃ) k ɡ/
/f v (θ) s z (ʃ) x/
/l r j w/
Later on, /tʃ ʃ/ → /tʃˠ ʃˠ/ → /tsx sx/.
Edit:
Would it be plausible to have /θ/ → (fortition) /tθ/ → /tx/ instead?
And also /k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How about /kː ɡː/ → /t͡ʃk d͡ʒg/ // [V +front]_, followed by /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ → /t͡s d͡z/? You don't need intermediate steps for /tʃ ʃ/ → /tsx sx/, [t͡s] and [t͡ʃ] are in free variation in some Dravid language I can't remember.Pole, the wrote:It looks roughly like that:Soap wrote:Others not likely without similar shifts affecting /k/ in other environments. How big is the pohonology?
/m n/
/p b t d (tʃ) k ɡ/
/f v (θ) s z (ʃ) x/
/l r j w/
Later on, /tʃ ʃ/ → /tʃˠ ʃˠ/ → /tsx sx/.
Edit:
Would it be plausible to have /θ/ → (fortition) /tθ/ → /tx/ instead?
And also /k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?
Given that vowels have inherent slight tone differences - going from highest to lowet [ɛ] [a] [ɔ] - how likely is that tone difference of a second unstressed vowel turning into pitch accent, while the vowels themselve reducing to [ɪ] [ɐ] [ʊ]? A quite common word type is CV(J)CV, stress is on first syllable.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Boring but straightforward version: /ɹ̩/ < *ɹ̩z > /az/.احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:How would I be able to make /ɹ̩/ and /az/ cognates?
Nganasan has /j/ as the voiced alternant of /s/ (the other pairs are /h/ : /b/, /t/ : /ð/, /k/ : /g/). This is from earlier palatal *ś, though.Porphyrogenitos wrote:Can anyone think of any other outcomes for lenited /s/, or any other initial pathways? Especially in a voiced environment?
Geminate dissimilation is not really a thing that happens.Pole, the wrote:/k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?
For a bit more of a roundabout, this should be workable: kː gː > ʰkː ɠ > hk ʔg > hk ɦg > xk ɣg > çk ʝg > tɕk dʑg > tsk dg.
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
It might be anecdotal, but Polish miękki, lekki → dialectal/colloquial miętki, letki.Tropylium wrote:Geminate dissimilation is not really a thing that happens.Pole, the wrote:/k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
What about
kː ɡː → k.k ɡ.ɡ → t.k d.ɡ
Although I think that either both voiced and voiceless plosives should affricate or neither do.
kː ɡː → k.k ɡ.ɡ → t.k d.ɡ
Although I think that either both voiced and voiceless plosives should affricate or neither do.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I think I could see that happening.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
yes, I should've thought of that first,sorry.Pole, the wrote: Would it be plausible to have /θ/ → (fortition) /tθ/ → /tx/ instead?
?
I'm on phone only for time being,sorry for messy typing.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
- ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪
- Avisaru
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:11 pm
- Location: Łódź
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Has there been recorded an unconditional change of [ɔ/o] to [œ/ø]?
In Budapest:
- Hey mate, are you hung-a-ry?
- Hey mate, are you hung-a-ry?
-
- Lebom
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:13 pm
- Location: Ohio
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
More or less, yes, at least if it's part of a larger vowel system where there's another shorter/laxer o-like consonant. E.g. in some English varieties, such as the Baltimore dialect, /oʊ/ is fronted almost all the way to /øʊ/ or even /eʊ/. Meanwhile the shorter, laxer /ɔ/ stays behind. This is because long vowels tend to front or be raised.ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:Has there been recorded an unconditional change of [ɔ/o] to [œ/ø]?
- ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪
- Avisaru
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:11 pm
- Location: Łódź
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
So, is there a possibility it'd become fronted without any other o-like vowel? I'm thinking of something similar to the change in French from to [y].
In Budapest:
- Hey mate, are you hung-a-ry?
- Hey mate, are you hung-a-ry?
- احمکي ارش-ھجن
- Avisaru
- Posts: 516
- Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:45 pm
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
What are ways to develop word-initial geminates of obstruents (although they would be phonetically realized as tense)? Looking mostly for /p t d k s/.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.