Minor Semitic Deities

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Minor Semitic Deities

Post by Zaarin »

Does anyone know of any Semitic (or even broader Near Eastern--Sumerian or Egyptian is fine) supernatural beings that might be seen as roughly equivalent to Norse alfar, Irish sídhe, or Greek nymphs/dryades/naiades/sylphs/etc.? Basically I'm looking for something higher on the chain of being than mortals but lower than gods. Arabic djinn came to mind, but djinn seem a little more supernatural than I'm looking for. Same with angels, demons, or Zoroastian yazatas, ahuras, or daevas. I'm working on a translation that refers to elves, and I'd rather use a Near Eastern term than simply borrow "elf" as pata (< L. fata) or ʾelep or some such.
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by linguoboy »

I remember reading years ago that an early translation of the Hobbit glossed "Elves" with צַפְרִירִים, from a cognate of English zephyr that was used (in some Talmudic source?) to refer to "spirits of the dawn". I can't find anything on that now and the present term seems to be בני לילית, lit. "sons of Lilith" (which seems a very odd choice for a fantasy world devoid of all Abrahamic influence, though it does recall myths of the origin of Icelandic huldufólk).

The closest Middle Eastern analogue I know to Elves are Peris, which originate with Persian mythology but have been thoroughly incorporated into Islamic folklore, where they are generally considered a subclass of jinn. (I can't remember if جِنّ is thought to be a borrowing of Latin genius or if it's considered a native derivation of جَنَّ "hide, envelope".)

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by Salmoneus »

Zaarin wrote:Does anyone know of any Semitic (or even broader Near Eastern--Sumerian or Egyptian is fine) supernatural beings that might be seen as roughly equivalent to Norse alfar, Irish sídhe, or Greek nymphs/dryades/naiades/sylphs/etc.? Basically I'm looking for something higher on the chain of being than mortals but lower than gods. Arabic djinn came to mind, but djinn seem a little more supernatural than I'm looking for. Same with angels, demons, or Zoroastian yazatas, ahuras, or daevas. I'm working on a translation that refers to elves, and I'd rather use a Near Eastern term than simply borrow "elf" as pata (< L. fata) or ʾelep or some such.
The sidhe are pretty supernatural too, you know...
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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linguoboy wrote:I remember reading years ago that an early translation of the Hobbit glossed "Elves" with צַפְרִירִים, from a cognate of English zephyr that was used (in some Talmudic source?) to refer to "spirits of the dawn". I can't find anything on that now and the present term seems to be בני לילית, lit. "sons of Lilith" (which seems a very odd choice for a fantasy world devoid of all Abrahamic influence, though it does recall myths of the origin of Icelandic huldufólk).

The closest Middle Eastern analogue I know to Elves are Peris, which originate with Persian mythology but have been thoroughly incorporated into Islamic folklore, where they are generally considered a subclass of jinn. (I can't remember if جِنّ is thought to be a borrowing of Latin genius or if it's considered a native derivation of جَنَّ "hide, envelope".)
Hmm, Peris would work. Thanks. :) (And yeah, "sons of Lilith" is a thematically odd choice on many levels...)
Salmoneus wrote:The sidhe are pretty supernatural too, you know...
Yeah, I know. I mentioned them because they were one of the inspirations, albeit a liminal one, for Tolkien's elves. What I'm looking for is really more in line with Norse alfar.
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by zompist »

Is India too far afield? Because there's plenty there: gandharvas, yakshas, vidyadharas, nagas, and on the mostly evil side, rakshasas.

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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There are also rakshasis and yakshis. Despite what Wikipedia says, my understanding is that yakshis are supposed to be evil and like black widow spiders: seducing their male victims and then eating them, although the eating part is perhaps more like vultures, sucking the bone marrow and leaving nothing behind but the hair and nails.

My understanding is also that in Kerala, at least, all of the following is true: A man sleeping with a yakshi can avoid this disastrous end simply by placing a copy of the Bhagavata Purana underneath the pillow. If a yakshi cannot convince the man to remove it, she will self-destruct. The male targets are usually noblemen whereas the yakshis themselves tend to be low-caste. Yakshis are also hollow inside, often live underneath devil trees, and/or may break the ice by asking their target for slaked lime (not a particularly unusual question in India since this is a common ingredient in paan).

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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linguoboy wrote:I remember reading years ago that an early translation of the Hobbit glossed "Elves" with צַפְרִירִים, from a cognate of English zephyr that was used (in some Talmudic source?) to refer to "spirits of the dawn". I can't find anything on that now and the present term seems to be בני לילית, lit. "sons of Lilith" (which seems a very odd choice for a fantasy world devoid of all Abrahamic influence, though it does recall myths of the origin of Icelandic huldufólk).
I don’t know about a translation with צפרירים, but the word generally just means “zephyr; cool morning breeze” now, rather than a spirit.

The translation with “sons of Lilith” is quite an old one, and also considered not a very good translation nowadays (except by that kind of fan who refuses everything but the version they read first) – it spends far too much effort shoehorning Tolkien’s concepts into vaguely similar concepts from Jewish religion and folklore, and it was later even edited so furiously that the edited version is officially considered a separate translation (“she [Livnit, the original translator] preferred poeticisms to precision” — some piece I found online*). The edited translation, as well as more current, unofficial translations (i.e. subtitles for the movies), and basically everyone who talks about LotR, just use אֶלְפִים\עֶלְפִים élfim “elves” (the version spelled with ʿayin being the theoretical spelling of the unattested Yiddish **Elpen, which I think is a nice touch (and also differentiates the word élfim from alafim “thousands; oxen” and álpim “Alps”, all spelled אלפים)).

The arguments I’ve heard for “sons of Lilith” are that a) the only word for “Man” (human) that has a plural is בני אדם “sons of Adam” (hello, C. S. Lewis), and it ‘matches’ phraseologically, and b) the Elves were created before Men, and Lilith was created before Eve, so it (sort of) matches semantically. Arguments against it include that a) “sons of Adam” is such a common collocation that it barely registers as having any meaning other than “humans” (sorry, C. S. Lewis), and it’s even the scientific name for the genus Homo, while “sons of Lilith” is an obscure folkloric term that nobody ever uses except when discussing this translation of LotR; b) the actual sons of Lilith of folklore aren’t remotely similar to Tolkien’s Elves; and c) the rest of Tolkien’s races (bar the Dwarves) are just transcriptions: órkim, hóbitim, etc.


*Also: “Lotem [the later editor] created a very serious linguistic work while Livnit, I feel as a reader, went with her gut feeling [as to what is prettier], therefore her translation is carved in stone for people as something iconic and established even though it’s not the definitive translation as concerns precision. […] Translation is like a woman; it can either be faithful or beautiful.” So, yeah. The sort of person who prefers the translation with “sons of Lilith” is a woman who thinks misogyny is okay, that translations shouldn’t have to be precise if it’s “prettier” to change them completely, and that Tolkien would have preferred religiously-loaded flowery faff over “serious linguistic work” that conveys his world much more faithfully.

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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zompist wrote:Is India too far afield? Because there's plenty there: gandharvas, yakshas, vidyadharas, nagas, and on the mostly evil side, rakshasas.
Some Sanskrit loans made it into Syriac (usually via Middle Persian), and my Medieval Punic is flush with Syriac loans, so...definitely on the fringe of what I'm looking for, but not entirely improbable...I'll look into some of those Indian options.
Astraios wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I remember reading years ago that an early translation of the Hobbit glossed "Elves" with צַפְרִירִים, from a cognate of English zephyr that was used (in some Talmudic source?) to refer to "spirits of the dawn". I can't find anything on that now and the present term seems to be בני לילית, lit. "sons of Lilith" (which seems a very odd choice for a fantasy world devoid of all Abrahamic influence, though it does recall myths of the origin of Icelandic huldufólk).
I don’t know about a translation with צפרירים, but the word generally just means “zephyr; cool morning breeze” now, rather than a spirit.

The translation with “sons of Lilith” is quite an old one, and also considered not a very good translation nowadays (except by that kind of fan who refuses everything but the version they read first) – it spends far too much effort shoehorning Tolkien’s concepts into vaguely similar concepts from Jewish religion and folklore, and it was later even edited so furiously that the edited version is officially considered a separate translation (“she [Livnit, the original translator] preferred poeticisms to precision” — some piece I found online*). The edited translation, as well as more current, unofficial translations (i.e. subtitles for the movies), and basically everyone who talks about LotR, just use אֶלְפִים\עֶלְפִים élfim “elves” (the version spelled with ʿayin being the theoretical spelling of the unattested Yiddish **Elpen, which I think is a nice touch (and also differentiates the word élfim from alafim “thousands; oxen” and álpim “Alps”, all spelled אלפים)).

The arguments I’ve heard for “sons of Lilith” are that a) the only word for “Man” (human) that has a plural is בני אדם “sons of Adam” (hello, C. S. Lewis), and it ‘matches’ phraseologically, and b) the Elves were created before Men, and Lilith was created before Eve, so it (sort of) matches semantically. Arguments against it include that a) “sons of Adam” is such a common collocation that it barely registers as having any meaning other than “humans” (sorry, C. S. Lewis), and it’s even the scientific name for the genus Homo, while “sons of Lilith” is an obscure folkloric term that nobody ever uses except when discussing this translation of LotR; b) the actual sons of Lilith of folklore aren’t remotely similar to Tolkien’s Elves; and c) the rest of Tolkien’s races (bar the Dwarves) are just transcriptions: órkim, hóbitim, etc.


*Also: “Lotem [the later editor] created a very serious linguistic work while Livnit, I feel as a reader, went with her gut feeling [as to what is prettier], therefore her translation is carved in stone for people as something iconic and established even though it’s not the definitive translation as concerns precision. […] Translation is like a woman; it can either be faithful or beautiful.” So, yeah. The sort of person who prefers the translation with “sons of Lilith” is a woman who thinks misogyny is okay, that translations shouldn’t have to be precise if it’s “prettier” to change them completely, and that Tolkien would have preferred religiously-loaded flowery faff over “serious linguistic work” that conveys his world much more faithfully.
Thanks for this interesting discussions. :) (Sorry for the brief reply but I'm really short on time ATM.)
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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I don't think translating names of mythological beings by mapping them onto beings of a different mythological tradition works well, at least not in general. Much less so with beings that are the invention of a specific author. Tolkien's Elves are based on a specifically Germanic mythological concept that is different even from the Irish Aes Sídhe, even though the latter are probably as close as you can get to Germanic Elves outside the Germanic world, and Tolkien's Elves in turn aren't the same as Germanic Elves, but merely based on them; they have their unique traits which aren't found in any mythology.
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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Zephyr is not a native word in Hebrew. It comes from Greek. Shedim are definitely not what you are looking for, but are still interesting.
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by linguoboy »

mèþru wrote:Shedim are definitely not what you are looking for, but are still interesting.
Apparently another translation used that, according to my two-decade-old memories of a conversation in sci.lang on the subject.

ETA: Googled a bit and found that apparently shedonim (shed with a diminutive suffix) was used in a translation of The Hobbit. Shed was used for "Orc" in the same translation.

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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WeepingElf wrote:I don't think translating names of mythological beings by mapping them onto beings of a different mythological tradition works well, at least not in general. Much less so with beings that are the invention of a specific author. Tolkien's Elves are based on a specifically Germanic mythological concept that is different even from the Irish Aes Sídhe, even though the latter are probably as close as you can get to Germanic Elves outside the Germanic world, and Tolkien's Elves in turn aren't the same as Germanic Elves, but merely based on them; they have their unique traits which aren't found in any mythology.
This is quite true, and if I were doing an actual translation of Tolkien's legendarium into Medieval Punic (which would be very anachronistic, given that it was spoken 450 years before LotR was written...) I would probably go with ʾelep ʾilpīm. I'm already doing this with other Elvish references like Ilmarin and Eldamar and Tirion and Lórien (and if that list doesn't make it obvious, I'm translating "Galadriel's Song of Eldamar" as a translation exercise). I left "Ever-eve" as a calque. However, as long as this is just an exercise to practice using Medieval Punic, I'd like the word I use for "elf" to have a little more local flavor. I'm currently liking Prīg (via hypothetical Syriac **parīgā < Middle Persian parīg, which renders Farsi pari, whence English peri, as recommended by linguoboy), hence Prīgī "Elven," the nisbeh form of Prīg. But yeah, if I were translating LotR in Medieval Punic, I would definitely go for ʾelep ʾilpīm for "Elf/Elves" and ʾilpī for "Elven" as the closest Punic rendering of these words. Likewise probably ʾorq, duvarp (or dūʾarp?), and hobbiṭ.
mèþru wrote:Zephyr is not a native word in Hebrew. It comes from Greek. Shedim are definitely not what you are looking for, but are still interesting.
No, but Akkadian šēdu wouldn't be a horrible option. I mean, Tolkien's Elves aren't human/lion/bull/eagle hybrids, and if you read more of Tolkien's legendarium than LotR it's really hard to argue that Elves are strictly benevolent (that's certainly not the word I'd use to describe Fëanor or his sons...or Thingol...or First Age Galadriel...). But the idea isn't horrible. :p
linguoboy wrote:
mèþru wrote:Shedim are definitely not what you are looking for, but are still interesting.
Apparently another translation used that, according to my two-decade-old memories of a conversation in sci.lang on the subject.

ETA: Googled a bit and found that apparently shedonim (shed with a diminutive suffix) was used in a translation of The Hobbit. Shed was used for "Orc" in the same translation.
In context of the origin of orcs, that's actually pretty interesting. I wonder if the fact that Tolkien chiefly preferred the term "goblin" in The Hobbit (vs. "Orc" or "Uruk" in LotR) would influence translations of that book.
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by mèþru »

I'd go with ʾork and duvarp instead of ʾorq and dūʾarp
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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mèþru wrote:I'd go with ʾork and duvarp instead of ʾorq and dūʾarp
Agree on duvarp, but Medieval Punic follows traditional Punic/Phoenician practices of borrowing non-aspirated consonants as emphatics (since non-emphatic consonants are aspirated). Akkadian did this as well, and I think Biblical Hebrew did, too. Thus also the <ṭ> in hobbiṭ. I can't find any evidence that Black Speech <k> is aspirated (compare Tolkien's indication of aspiration in Khuzdûl), and it's certainly not in English.
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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I wonder whether I can help you with the Indian mythology part! :P

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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Vijay wrote:I wonder whether I can help you with the Indian mythology part! :P
Possibly, actually. I was reading about gandharvas, which actually sound more like Tolkien's Elves than most of the supernatural beings I've read about...except that they're exclusively male and the counterpart of female apsaras. There doesn't happen to be a unisex term that covers both gandharvas and apsaras, does there? :p
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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Zaarin wrote:
Vijay wrote:I wonder whether I can help you with the Indian mythology part! :P
Possibly, actually. I was reading about gandharvas, which actually sound more like Tolkien's Elves than most of the supernatural beings I've read about...except that they're exclusively male and the counterpart of female apsaras. There doesn't happen to be a unisex term that covers both gandharvas and apsaras, does there? :p
Well, there's devata, but that basically means any heavenly being, so it obviously includes a lot more than just gandharvas and apsaras. ;) There are also Vidyadharas, though. Vidyadhara by default would mean a male (the female form being Vidyadhari), but at least if Wikipedia is anything to go by, it is possible to say "Vidyadhara women," so...:P

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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The Nephilim do not receive a particularly supernatural treatment in the bible, right? My immediate impression of an Assyrian minor deity is the Lamassu, but they aren't humanoid.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... and_demons There is possibly a minor contradiction in the problem definition. The race must satisfy both: 1. Being not very supernatural. 2. Being minor deities. Deities are usually quite supernatural. This is not necessarily a fatal objection, but it is something to bear in mind. (I don't see how the original ljosalfar, svartalfar, etc. were much of an exception to this, honestly. Didn't they behave pretty much like spirits anywhere, with magic spells and everything? What medievals often did, following Greek practice, was to reverse engineer stories of kings from even the most supernatural gods. Something along those lines might be one possibility, since actual gods are often portrayed with fewer animal characteristics than races of spirits. Also, that list doesn't mention the Utukku, another candidate you may be interested in, but IIRC the biblical Nephilim are the least magical of the lot. (Ghouls are another possibility I thought of. All these things are supernatural in different ways. Could you specify what you mean by "supernatural"? (Just realized ghouls already appear on the list as gallu. Never mind.)))
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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rotting bones wrote:The Nephilim do not receive a particularly supernatural treatment in the bible, right? My immediate impression of an Assyrian minor deity is the Lamassu, but they aren't humanoid.
I thought about Nephilim. They would probably be my go-to for trolls, but probably not Elves. The lamassu/shedu is an interesting option, despite being a hybrid.
There is possibly a minor contradiction in the problem definition. The race must satisfy both: 1. Being not very supernatural. 2. Being minor deities. Deities are usually quite supernatural. This is not necessarily a fatal objection, but it is something to bear in mind. (I don't see how the original ljosalfar, svartalfar, etc. were much of an exception to this, honestly. Didn't they behave pretty much like spirits anywhere, with magic spells and everything? What medievals often did, following Greek practice, was to reverse engineer stories of kings from even the most supernatural gods. Something along those lines might be one possibility, since actual gods are often portrayed with fewer animal characteristics than races of spirits. Also, that list doesn't mention the Utukku, another candidate you may be interested in, but IIRC the biblical Nephilim are the least magical of the lot. (Ghouls are another possibility I thought of. All these things are supernatural in different ways. Could you specify what you mean by "supernatural"? (Just realized ghouls already appear on the list as gallu. Never mind.)))
Yeah, I suppose "demigod" is more in line with what I'm looking for. There's definitely a supernatural element to Norse alfar and to Tolkien's Elves, but in particular with Tolkien's Elves this supernatural element is generally understated and sublimated by the fact that they're also a part of this world (indeed, Tolkien's lore suggests that Elves are truly bound to this world: when they die they go to the Halls of Mandos, possibly to be born again, whereas even the Valar do not know what happens to Men, who possibly go the Void beyond the confines of the World; likewise, it's speculated that Elves have no future in Eru's recreated world whereas Men do). Really, that's why WeepingElf is correct: in the strictest sense the best translation would be a transliteration of Elf. I'm just looking for more flavor for an ad hoc translation. While peris are actually quite different, thematically and phonetically I'm liking them.
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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I see what you're going for. There are the bird-headed humanoids Apkallu. Enki created them in Abzu. They came to earth and taught humans the arts of civilization, laws, writing and architecture. Before the flood, they served as advisors to kings. After the flood, Enki banished them back to Abzu. Is it just me, or are there distinct resonances of the Blessed Realm?
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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Zaarin wrote:Tolkien's lore suggests that Elves are truly bound to this world: when they die they go to the Halls of Mandos, possibly to be born again, whereas even the Valar do not know what happens to Men, who possibly go the Void beyond the confines of the World; likewise, it's speculated that Elves have no future in Eru's recreated world whereas Men do... While peris are actually quite different, thematically and phonetically I'm liking them.
Well, maybe elves can go beyond the Void if, in three attempts, they're able to offer Mandos that which is most pleasing to Illuvatar...
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

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Vijay wrote:There are also rakshasis and yakshis. Despite what Wikipedia says, my understanding is that yakshis are supposed to be evil and like black widow spiders: seducing their male victims and then eating them, although the eating part is perhaps more like vultures, sucking the bone marrow and leaving nothing behind but the hair and nails.
Right, but there's also the Buddhist tradition of yaksha and yakshi guardians, often sculpted on temples. Maybe they went downhill over the centuries.

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by Vijay »

zompist wrote:
Vijay wrote:There are also rakshasis and yakshis. Despite what Wikipedia says, my understanding is that yakshis are supposed to be evil and like black widow spiders: seducing their male victims and then eating them, although the eating part is perhaps more like vultures, sucking the bone marrow and leaving nothing behind but the hair and nails.
Right, but there's also the Buddhist tradition of yaksha and yakshi guardians, often sculpted on temples. Maybe they went downhill over the centuries.
I think there might be a Jain tradition that's like that, too. There's a Jain myth I know that sounds kind of like Cinderella, except with her father as an important character and her evil stepmother also attempting to kill her after she marries the prince (or, in this case, king). The stepmother keeps making desserts for her laced with increasingly deadly poisons, but a yaksha just swaps them out for harmless ones.

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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by Zaarin »

rotting bones wrote:I see what you're going for. There are the bird-headed humanoids Apkallu. Enki created them in Abzu. They came to earth and taught humans the arts of civilization, laws, writing and architecture. Before the flood, they served as advisors to kings. After the flood, Enki banished them back to Abzu. Is it just me, or are there distinct resonances of the Blessed Realm?
Oooh, that is promising. Very, very promising. Even the part of later transgressions sounds very analogous to the Noldor.
Salmoneus wrote:
Zaarin wrote:Tolkien's lore suggests that Elves are truly bound to this world: when they die they go to the Halls of Mandos, possibly to be born again, whereas even the Valar do not know what happens to Men, who possibly go the Void beyond the confines of the World; likewise, it's speculated that Elves have no future in Eru's recreated world whereas Men do... While peris are actually quite different, thematically and phonetically I'm liking them.
Well, maybe elves can go beyond the Void if, in three attempts, they're able to offer Mandos that which is most pleasing to Illuvatar...
Except Mandos only prophesies fate, not decrees it. :p
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Re: Minor Semitic Deities

Post by Salmoneus »

Zaarin wrote:
rotting bones wrote:I see what you're going for. There are the bird-headed humanoids Apkallu. Enki created them in Abzu. They came to earth and taught humans the arts of civilization, laws, writing and architecture. Before the flood, they served as advisors to kings. After the flood, Enki banished them back to Abzu. Is it just me, or are there distinct resonances of the Blessed Realm?
Oooh, that is promising. Very, very promising. Even the part of later transgressions sounds very analogous to the Noldor.
Salmoneus wrote:
Zaarin wrote:Tolkien's lore suggests that Elves are truly bound to this world: when they die they go to the Halls of Mandos, possibly to be born again, whereas even the Valar do not know what happens to Men, who possibly go the Void beyond the confines of the World; likewise, it's speculated that Elves have no future in Eru's recreated world whereas Men do... While peris are actually quite different, thematically and phonetically I'm liking them.
Well, maybe elves can go beyond the Void if, in three attempts, they're able to offer Mandos that which is most pleasing to Illuvatar...
Except Mandos only prophesies fate, not decrees it. :p
Mandos was the closest analogue I could think of to the "gatekeeper of heaven" role in the original story.
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