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zompist bboard • View topic - Are the h and ng sounds allophones?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:16 pm 
Sanci
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I've heard some say that the sound at the beginning and end of the word "hang" might be allophones. I don't think that's the case. Because people don't really perceive them as being the same sound.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:33 pm 
Smeric
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The only "evidence" for h and ŋ being the same phoneme is their complementary distribution. But obviously they aren't the same phoneme, so usually people insist on "phonetic similarity". This probably isn't the right approach either, so I agree with your idea, that native speaker intuition is a better judge of which phones belong together.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:45 pm 
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People usually don't perceive the latter to be a sound at all due to an extremely orthography-centric approach to consonants in English language education. It is usually thought of as n + g. I've actually thought of what you're saying before. I think that it isn't thought of as an allophonic pair by linguists because phones don't have any relationship - [h] can never be modified by its surroundings into becoming [ŋ] or vice versa.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:33 pm 
Sanci
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Yeah. I don't think any linguists seriously consider the sounds as being allophones. They use them as an example of why phonemes can't be defined only by complementary distribution.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:27 pm 
Avisaru
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The distribution isn't even totally complementary:
"There's a singer ahead."

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:30 pm 
Smeric
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It still is, as the syllabification is different: sɪŋ.ər against ə.hɛd


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:33 pm 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:17 pm 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:19 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:24 am 
Avisaru
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- Hey mate, are you hung-a-ry?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:43 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:04 am 
Sanno
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Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:52 am 
Avisaru
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In Budapest:
- Hey mate, are you hung-a-ry?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:54 pm 
Sanci
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There's also the fact that the sounds [h] and [N] are represented differently orthographically. Allophones of a single phoneme tend to be represented the same way. The unaspirated p in "spin" and the aspirated p in "pin" are both represented with "p".


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:17 pm 
Sanno
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Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:19 pm 
Sanci
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:55 pm 
Sanno
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Blog:

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:10 pm 
Lebom
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The goat/goal split may also play a part: some people have the goal allophone before intervocalic /l/, as in holy, but not in slowly because of a morpheme boundary.

I don't think anyone ever suggested seriously that [h] and [ŋ] are allophones; it seems to me a reductio ad absurdum to show that complementary distribution is a necessary but not sufficient condition.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:29 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:28 pm 
Smeric
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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:16 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:20 pm 
Smeric
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I have heard of rhinoglottophilia before, but not in English.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:24 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:41 am 
Sumerul
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One thing to consider is that in almost all these cases of supposed phonemic syllabification (e.g. singing versus ahead, rawhide versus wrong-eyed, peace-eyed versus pea-side, tine-eat versus tie-neat, wholly versus holy) what we really have are phonemic morpheme boundaries or phonemic stress (e.g. Wis-consin versus Wi-sconsin). Therefore I am highly skeptical of the existence of phonemic syllabification, because practically always when it is proposed there is a better explanation.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:32 pm 
Smeric
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I agree that phonemic syllabification does not exist in most English varieties. That does not mean it does not exist in other languages.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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