zompist wrote:
I've always recommended to conlangers that they consider four possible relative situations, where the target noun is
(1) subject in both clauses: The player who complains about his team will lose.
(2) subject in main, object in subclause: The player that Widowmaker shot was too visible.
(3) object in main, subject in subclause: Everyone hates the player who complains about his team.
(4) object in both clauses: Mercy resurrected the player that Widowmaker shot.
Looking more closely at several natlangs, though, it seems the subclauses in (2) and (4) are the same, and so are the ones in (1) and (3). That is, the structure of the subclause (including case roles) doesn't depend on anything in the main clause.
Does anyone have a natlang counterexample at hand? That is, an example where the subclause itself varies depending on whether it's attached to a subject or an object?
Let's see how Modern Standard Arabic handles them:
اللاعب الذي يشتكي من فريقه سيخسر
al-lā3ibu alāḏī yaštakī min fariqihi sayaxsar
al-lā3ibu alaḏī ya-štakī min fariq-i-hi sa-ya-xsar
DEF-player-NOM REL.masc.sg. 3sg.IND-complain from team-GEN-3sg.masc FUT-3sg.masc-loseThe player who complains about his team will lose.
اللاعب الذي أطلق المرمل النار عليه كان بائنا بالكثير
al-lā3ibu alāḏī aṭlaqa al-Murammil al-nāra 3alayhi kān bā'inan bi-l-kaṯīr
al-lā3ibu alaḏī aṭlaqa al-Murammil al-nāra 3alayhi kān bā'inan bi-l-kaṯīr
DEF-player REL.masc.sg fire DEF-widow.maker DEF-fire upon-3sg.masc be.PRF.3sg.masc appear-ACC in-DEF-muchThe player that Widowmaker shot (al-Murammil 'causes to be a widow') was too visible (Arabic speakers: I had trouble deciding whether to use
bā'in, wāḍiḥ, or manẓūr here, thoughts?
يكره الجميع اللاعب الذي يشتكي من فريقه
yakrahu al-jamī3u al-lā3iba alāḏī yaštakī min fariqih
ya-krah-u al-jamī3-u al-lā3ib-a alaḏī ya-štakī min fariq-i-h
3sg.masc-hate DEF-collective DEF-player-ACC REL.masc.sg 3sg.masc-complain from team-GEN-3sg.mascEveryone hates the player that complains about his team.
بعث عبدالرحمان من الموت اللاعب الذي أطلق المرمل النار عليه
ba3aṯa min al-mawti 3abdu al-raḥmān al-lā3iba alaḏī aṭlaqa al-Murammil al-nāra 3alayhi
ba3aṯa min al-mawti 3abdu al-raḥmān al-lā3iba alāḏī aṭlaqa al-Murammil al-nāra 3alayhi
send.3sg.PRF from DEF-death-GEN Abdelrahman DEF-player-ACC REL.masc.sg. fire.PRF.3sg Widowmaker DEF-fire-ACC upon-3sgAbdelrahman resurrected (Arabic gamers how do you express this?) the player who Widowmaker shot.
The only instance in which the subclauses differ is by the number and gender of the referent nominal. Ie, feminine singular nouns take
alātī, plural
alawātī; masculine plural
alāḏīna. The colloquial forms of Arabic simply this schema further: the relative pronoun becomes a single
illī for all referents, regardless of gender or number:
كلنا نكره اللاعب اللي بيشتكي من فريقه
killenā nekrah il-lā3ib illī byeštekī min farigo
kill-nā ne-krah il-lā3ib illī b-yeštekī min farig-o
all-1.pl 1.pl-hate DEF-player REL IND-3sg.-complain from team-3sg.mascWe all hate the player who complains about his team.
البنت اللي اني مشتاق لها لاعبه فورتنايت
il-binit illi ani meštag laha lā3ibet Fortnite
DEF-girl REL 1sg love to-3sg.fem player-fem.CONS FortniteThe girl that I love is a Fortnite player.
أنا وصحابي عايزين نقتل اللاعبين اللي غشوا
ana we soḥābī 3ayzīn ne'tol il-lā3ibīn illi ğaššū
1sg and friends.pl-1sg want-pl. 1pl.SUB-kill DEF-player-pl. REL cheat-PRF.3sg.pl.My buddies and me want to kill the players who cheated.
_________________
Isn't it sort of a relief to talk about the English Premier League instead of the sad state of publishing?
Abi wrote:
At this point it seems pretty apparent that PIE was simply an ancient esperanto gone awry.
Shtåså,
Empotle7á,
Neire Wippwo
Login
Register
FAQ
Search
) Stuff like "the reason why", "the place where/whence", "the year when" etc.
).
