The Dutch Topic
The Dutch Topic
Once again, in one of my regular visits to #almea, Dutch seems to be a slightly popular language.
So here I present: The Dutch Topic!
Any questions about this Germanic language? Ask, and I will answer if I can.
So here I present: The Dutch Topic!
Any questions about this Germanic language? Ask, and I will answer if I can.
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Re: The Dutch Topic
Very well. Want a throat sweet? I'm just joking.... I don't know enough about Dutch to know what to ask. What Tenses, Aspects, Moods and Persons do Dutch verbs mark?MUBA wrote:Once again, in one of my regular visits to #almea, Dutch seems to be a slightly popular language.
So here I present: The Dutch Topic!
Any questions about this Germanic language? Ask, and I will answer if I can.
Try the online version of the HaSC sound change applier: http://chrisdb.dyndns-at-home.com/HaSC
1. What conditions does something have to fulfil in order to be called gezellig? When can I use this word and when not?
2. What is the X-SAMPA for <ch>, <g> and <r>? How do these vary between dialects?
3. Are there any dialectal differences over whether verbs are strong or weak? For example, in English the verb "treat" is weak in Standard English, but strong in Geordie (Newcastle English): there the preterite is "tret". Does anything like this happen in the Netherlands?
4. Is there any sort of dialect continuum between Dutch and Frisian, or is Frisian an Abstand language?
5. What conditions the use of participle-auxiliary versus auxiliary-participle word order in subordinate clauses? (E.g. dat hij gegaan is versus dat hij is gegaan.)
6. Can the Dutch aspect system cope with sentences like English "I see you have been painting the house" (if you imagine me going to my neighbour's house and seeing him relaxing in a garden chair with the paintbrush in his hand and the wall half-painted ? he hasn't finished yet but he's taking a break) or "I have been reading your book" (I'm in the middle of it, and am not reading it right at this very moment)?
That's all for the moment. Thanks.
Yours, Tim.
2. What is the X-SAMPA for <ch>, <g> and <r>? How do these vary between dialects?
3. Are there any dialectal differences over whether verbs are strong or weak? For example, in English the verb "treat" is weak in Standard English, but strong in Geordie (Newcastle English): there the preterite is "tret". Does anything like this happen in the Netherlands?
4. Is there any sort of dialect continuum between Dutch and Frisian, or is Frisian an Abstand language?
5. What conditions the use of participle-auxiliary versus auxiliary-participle word order in subordinate clauses? (E.g. dat hij gegaan is versus dat hij is gegaan.)
6. Can the Dutch aspect system cope with sentences like English "I see you have been painting the house" (if you imagine me going to my neighbour's house and seeing him relaxing in a garden chair with the paintbrush in his hand and the wall half-painted ? he hasn't finished yet but he's taking a break) or "I have been reading your book" (I'm in the middle of it, and am not reading it right at this very moment)?
That's all for the moment. Thanks.
Yours, Tim.
[i]Linguistics will become a science when linguists begin standing on one another's shoulders instead of on one another's toes.[/i]
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
Re: The Dutch Topic
Tenses and aspectschris_notts wrote:Very well. Want a throat sweet? I'm just joking.... I don't know enough about Dutch to know what to ask. What Tenses, Aspects, Moods and Persons do Dutch verbs mark?
Ok, here I go. I just try to translate the English names literally to English.
Onvoltooid Tegenwoordig (present imperfect)
Active: Ik ben slaande - I am hitting
Passive: Ik word geslagen - I am being hit
Onvoltooid Verleden (past imperfect)
Active: Ik was slaande - I was hitting
Passive: Ik werd geslagen - I was being hit
Onvoltooid Toekomend (future imperfect)
A: Ik zal slaande zijn - I will be hitting
P Ik zal geslagen worden - I will be being hit
Onvoltooid Verleden Toekomend (past future imperfect)
A: Ik zou slaande zijn - I would be hitting
P: Ik zou geslagen worden - I would be being hit
Voltooid Tegenwoordig (present perfect)
A: Ik heb geslagen - I have hit
P: Ik ben geslagen - I am hit
Voltooid Verleden (past peftect)
A: Ik zal geslagen hebben - I will have hit
P: Ik was geslagen - I was hit
Voltooid Toekomend (future perfect)
A: Ik zal geslagen hebben - I will have hit
P: Ik zal geslagen zijn - I will be hit
Voltooid Verleden Toekomend (Past future perfect)
A: Ik zou geslagen hebben - I would have hit
P: Ik zou geslagen zijn - I would have been hit
Moods
There is indicative: I hit
There is imperative: Hit him!
There is subjunctive: Long live the queen, God be with us
And of course infinitive: to hit
Persons
Well this one is pretty simple. There are three persons, both in singular and plural. Besides that, there is a formal second singular.
Code: Select all
nom acc/dat pos
1s ik me/mij mijn
2s jij jou jouw
2s (formal) u u uw
3s (male) hij hem zijn
3s (female) ze/zij haar haar
1p wij ons ons/onze
2p jullie jullie jullie
3p zij hen hun
Possesive is the possessive pronoun.
In the reply below,
I dunno, actuallySiride wrote:Where did "jullie" come from?
Last edited by MUBA on Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
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It varies. A typical example of "gezelligheid" (gezelligness) is, I think, when you're with a group of friends, on holiday somewhere. It's night. You guys made a camp fire. One or two of you are playing guitar. Maybe you're singing the typical camp fire songs they're playing. Maybe you're just sitting, staring into the fire, listening to the music and singing.Echobeats wrote:1. What conditions does something have to fulfil in order to be called gezellig? When can I use this word and when not?
Another example. People want this to be "gezellig", but sometimes it is not: the christmas diner
Laying on bed together with your boy/girlfriend, talking about how much you love each other is also very gezellig. Or romantic, maybe.
The general idea of gezelligheid is that you're together with people (one, two, three, infinite) you like, having a (more than) good time.
See above That's not X-SAMPA, but SAMPA, but I think it should do it.2. What is the X-SAMPA for <ch>, <g> and <r>? How do these vary between dialects?
In a way. In Limburgs (Limburg is a province in the South of the country) there are some rules which are not like Standard Dutch. Some of those rules are directly borrowed from German. But then again, some people say Limburgs actually is a German dialect, not a Dutch one - I even heard a Limburger saying that!3. Are there any dialectal differences over whether verbs are strong or weak? For example, in English the verb "treat" is weak in Standard English, but strong in Geordie (Newcastle English): there the preterite is "tret". Does anything like this happen in the Netherlands?
Frisian is a seperate language. I don't know if there are Frisian dialects, though4. Is there any sort of dialect continuum between Dutch and Frisian, or is Frisian an Abstand language?
AFAIK, this is merely a matter of style.5. What conditions the use of participle-auxiliary versus auxiliary-participle word order in subordinate clauses? (E.g. dat hij gegaan is versus dat hij is gegaan.)
"Ik hoop dat hij gegaan is, want dan kunnen we roken" and "Ik hoop dat hij is gegaan, want dan kunnen we roken" are exactly the same (I hope he's gone, because then we can smoke)
I can think of no example in which this word order actually matters.
Yes, I think it can.6. Can the Dutch aspect system cope with sentences like English "I see you have been painting the house" (if you imagine me going to my neighbour's house and seeing him relaxing in a garden chair with the paintbrush in his hand and the wall half-painted – he hasn't finished yet but he's taking a break) or "I have been reading your book" (I'm in the middle of it, and am not reading it right at this very moment)?
I see you have been painting the house - Ik zie dat je het huis aan het verven geweest bent
This really indicates some painting has been done, but it has not yet been finished.
I have been reading your book - Ik heb in je boek gelezen.
Note, though, that the preposition "in" is important here. It means: "I have been reading in your book". Without it (Ik heb je boek gelezen) would mean "I have read your book".
But it's more common to say: "ik ben je book aan het lezen" (I am reading your book).
That's all for the moment. Thanks.
Yours, Tim.
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[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
Middle Dutch je 'you' + lie(den) 'people'.Siride wrote:Where did "jullie" come from?
je itself was a dialectal/colloquial form of the 2nd person plural personal pronoun, longer form jij. Clearly related to older English ye.
(Source: B.C. Donaldson: Dutch - A linguistic history of Holland and Belgium, p.171)
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Hmm, I had guessed as much. Thanks for the verification.gsandi wrote:Middle Dutch je 'you' + lie(den) 'people'.Siride wrote:Where did "jullie" come from?
je itself was a dialectal/colloquial form of the 2nd person plural personal pronoun, longer form jij. Clearly related to older English ye.
(Source: B.C. Donaldson: Dutch - A linguistic history of Holland and Belgium, p.171)
More questions:
1) What's the real pronunciation of 'w'? I think I've heard it as more of a 'w' and in Comrie's World's Major Languages book, they used a script 'v' (or maybe upsilon) for that sound.
2) What's the deal with "word" being present, but "werd" being past (from your examples of tenses above)? Seems a little backwards to me.
1) I think it is like English "why", but with less rounded lips. Somewhere inbetween "why" and "hi" maybe.Siride wrote:That's exactly what I had guessed. I'll give myself one point for that.gsandi wrote:Middle Dutch je 'you' + lie(den) 'people'.Siride wrote:Where did "jullie" come from?
je itself was a dialectal/colloquial form of the 2nd person plural personal pronoun, longer form jij. Clearly related to older English ye.
(Source: B.C. Donaldson: Dutch - A linguistic history of Holland and Belgium, p.171)
More questions:
1) What's the real pronunciation of 'w'?
2) What's the deal with "word" being present, but "werd" being past (from your examples of tenses above)? Seems a little backwards to me.
2) I do not fully understand this question. You are asking why "word" is present and "werd" past? If so, I don't know the answer. But somehow I think you mean something slightly different.
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[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
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You have the question correct. In German, the present is "werd-" and the past is "ward-" or "wurde-". But in Dutch it appears reversed, which is interesting and thus my question.2) I do not fully understand this question. You are asking why "word" is present and "werd" past? If so, I don't know the answer. But somehow I think you mean something slightly different.
IIRfC, it's /P/. (Not sure it's the right X-Sampa, it's a labiodental approxiament)Siride wrote:1) What's the real pronunciation of 'w'? I think I've heard it as more of a 'w' and in Comrie's World's Major Languages book, they used a script 'v' (or maybe upsilon) for that sound.
Nice thread. If I was going to learn another West Germanic language, I'd definately go for Dutch.
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Of the /E/ and /A/ versions of <ij>, which one is more standard and which is more rural?
Just looking at them I'm wanting to say /ai/ for <ij> because it makes words like zijn closer to German sein.
I also think in Afrikaans <g> is /G/, at least from my Dad's speech.
Just looking at them I'm wanting to say /ai/ for <ij> because it makes words like zijn closer to German sein.
I also think in Afrikaans <g> is /G/, at least from my Dad's speech.
<Dudicon> i would but you're too fat to fit in my mouth!!
You're right. Interesting indeed. Unfortunately, I'm not able to answer the questionSiride wrote:You have the question correct. In German, the present is "werd-" and the past is "ward-" or "wurde-". But in Dutch it appears reversed, which is interesting and thus my question.2) I do not fully understand this question. You are asking why "word" is present and "werd" past? If so, I don't know the answer. But somehow I think you mean something slightly different.
I'm not really good in (X-)SAMPA, but according to your comparison with German 'sein', I think it is not /ai/. So /ei/ is more default. But then I'd like to give you the link to the site about Polder Dutch again. It's the same link Junes gave before.Space Dracula wrote:Of the /E/ and /A/ versions of <ij>, which one is more standard and which is more rural?
Just looking at them I'm wanting to say /ai/ for <ij> because it makes words like zijn closer to German sein.
I also think in Afrikaans <g> is /G/, at least from my Dad's speech.
Anyway, this sound change makes <ij> indeed pronounced like /ai/.
Could you say what you like about Dutch? And what other West Germaninc languages - except for apperently English - do you know?Phasmo wrote:IIRfC, it's /P/. (Not sure it's the right X-Sampa, it's a labiodental approxiament)Siride wrote:1) What's the real pronunciation of 'w'? I think I've heard it as more of a 'w' and in Comrie's World's Major Languages book, they used a script 'v' (or maybe upsilon) for that sound.
Nice thread. If I was going to learn another West Germanic language, I'd definately go for Dutch.
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[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
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Well, here's my two eurocents.
I'm a bit puzzled at your verb thingy, MUBA. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the onvoltooid tegenwoordig(e tijd) be "ik sla", the onvoltooid verleden (tijd) "ik sloeg", and stuff like that, in stead of "ik ben slaande" en "ik was slaande"? They sound very unnatural to me.
Also, both <g> (except in loanwords) and <ch> are always /x/ in my part of the woods (Haarlem), as far as I can tell. Also, IMD, <w> is /v/ and <v> is /f/... although there does seem to be a slight difference with <f>.
Other than that, great thread, keep up the good work!
I'm a bit puzzled at your verb thingy, MUBA. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the onvoltooid tegenwoordig(e tijd) be "ik sla", the onvoltooid verleden (tijd) "ik sloeg", and stuff like that, in stead of "ik ben slaande" en "ik was slaande"? They sound very unnatural to me.
Also, both <g> (except in loanwords) and <ch> are always /x/ in my part of the woods (Haarlem), as far as I can tell. Also, IMD, <w> is /v/ and <v> is /f/... although there does seem to be a slight difference with <f>.
Other than that, great thread, keep up the good work!
Yeah, I was I bit puzzled by that, too.Grath wrote:I'm a bit puzzled at your verb thingy, MUBA. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the onvoltooid tegenwoordig(e tijd) be "ik sla", the onvoltooid verleden (tijd) "ik sloeg", and stuff like that, in stead of "ik ben slaande" en "ik was slaande"? They sound very unnatural to me.
Re: The Dutch Topic
Have you ever heard of someone using that?MUBA wrote:Onvoltooid Tegenwoordig (present imperfect)
Active: Ik ben slaande - I am hitting
Onvoltooid Verleden (past imperfect)
Active: Ik was slaande - I was hitting
Onvoltooid Toekomend (future imperfect)
A: Ik zal slaande zijn - I will be hitting
Onvoltooid Verleden Toekomend (past future imperfect)
A: Ik zou slaande zijn - I would be hitting
It is better to say 'Ik ben aan het slaan' and 'Ik was aan het slaan' for the first two. The 'onvoltooid toekomend actief' en 'onvoltooid verleden toekomend actief' is really nonsense in Dutch! (ik zal slaande zijn, whaha! )
lenelinele pelapeda
Well, Dutch is very close to German, which I like, but I've come to find that it sounds better. Not nearly as harsh. Also, the orthography is cool.Could you say what you like about Dutch? And what other West Germaninc languages - except for apperently English - do you know
And the only West Germanic language I know is English (but I have looked at some others).
Grath wrote:Well, here's my two eurocents.
I'm a bit puzzled at your verb thingy, MUBA. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the onvoltooid tegenwoordig(e tijd) be "ik sla", the onvoltooid verleden (tijd) "ik sloeg", and stuff like that, in stead of "ik ben slaande" en "ik was slaande"? They sound very unnatural to me.
Also, both <g> (except in loanwords) and <ch> are always /x/ in my part of the woods (Haarlem), as far as I can tell. Also, IMD, <w> is /v/ and <v> is /f/... although there does seem to be a slight difference with <f>.
Other than that, great thread, keep up the good work!
Oh my... yes, you are right theremuccimas wrote:Have you ever heard of someone using that?MUBA wrote:Onvoltooid Tegenwoordig (present imperfect)
Active: Ik ben slaande - I am hitting
Onvoltooid Verleden (past imperfect)
Active: Ik was slaande - I was hitting
Onvoltooid Toekomend (future imperfect)
A: Ik zal slaande zijn - I will be hitting
Onvoltooid Verleden Toekomend (past future imperfect)
A: Ik zou slaande zijn - I would be hitting
It is better to say 'Ik ben aan het slaan' and 'Ik was aan het slaan' for the first two. The 'onvoltooid toekomend actief' en 'onvoltooid verleden toekomend actief' is really nonsense in Dutch! (ik zal slaande zijn, whaha! )
My fault
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[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
Dutch has no i-umlaut. The Dutch ? is called "i met trema". I will try to explain how it works.linguoboy wrote:How's your historical linguistics? zhenlin had some questions about i-umlaut and while I remember that it works differently in Dutch and German, I can't remember exactly how differently.
Let's take the Dutch wordd for Italy: Ital?e
Without the trema, it would sound like /itali/. But the trema indicates <ie> does not meat /i/ but /i@/ -> /itali@/.
I hope this is clear.
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Yes, it does; all West Germanic languages do. "Umlaut" is the name for both a kind of phonetic change (known to Celticists as "vowel affection") and the diacritic which sometimes indicates the result of it. Dutch lacks the latter, but exhibits the former. Otherwise how do you explain alternations like lang, but lengte? (Cf. English long, length; German lang, L?nge.)MUBA wrote:Dutch has no i-umlaut.linguoboy wrote:How's your historical linguistics? zhenlin had some questions about i-umlaut and while I remember that it works differently in Dutch and German, I can't remember exactly how differently.
Isn't that what is called ablaut? Or am I completely wrong here?linguoboy wrote:Yes, it does; all West Germanic languages do. "Umlaut" is the name for both a kind of phonetic change (known to Celticists as "vowel affection") and the diacritic which sometimes indicates the result of it. Dutch lacks the latter, but exhibits the former. Otherwise how do you explain alternations like lang, but lengte? (Cf. English long, length; German lang, L?nge.)MUBA wrote:Dutch has no i-umlaut.linguoboy wrote:How's your historical linguistics? zhenlin had some questions about i-umlaut and while I remember that it works differently in Dutch and German, I can't remember exactly how differently.
To me, umlaut is the "-diacritic.
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[quote]<Naima> Chocolate is the zbb[/quote]
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Completely. Hopefully, this Wikipedia article should help clarify matters.MUBA wrote:Isn't that what is called ablaut? Or am I completely wrong here?
It can be that, but that is not its only--or, indeed, even its primary--meaning.To me, umlaut is the "-diacritic.