Polysynthetic Conlang

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vohpenonomae
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Post by vohpenonomae »

So if we in our IE mindset interpret a lot of our nouns as verbals (language=communicating), are we far closer to understanding the system
of e.g. Mohawk?
More or less. When trying to accurately capture semantics in translation, -ing words are used by the truckload.
Are most poly languages "verby"? I remember something about at least some being nouny, I think...
My specialities are the Algonquian and Iroquois families, both of which are verby in the extreme. I can't really speak of other familes, or of polysynthetic languages generally.
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Post by Jaaaaaa »

I thought of an interesting (please tell me if it's wrong!) way of looking at it: consider that time is a space-dimension like the other three. "Nouns", or at least the ones that denote physical objects, refer to things that take up three-dimensional space, while "verbs" have the added dimension of time, while at the same time (no pun intended!) blurring exactly what the physical makeup is. Or something. I dunno, I just thought of it at school when I was bored. Can anyone tell me how close to being right I am?

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Post by Dudicon »

Jaaaaaa wrote:I thought of an interesting (please tell me if it's wrong!) way of looking at it: consider that time is a space-dimension like the other three. "Nouns", or at least the ones that denote physical objects, refer to things that take up three-dimensional space, while "verbs" have the added dimension of time, while at the same time (no pun intended!) blurring exactly what the physical makeup is. Or something. I dunno, I just thought of it at school when I was bored. Can anyone tell me how close to being right I am?
Except that the whole point is that what's considered an "action" and what's considered a "thing" isn't universal, and varies greatly in the specifics and in the broader picture across cultures. The kinesthetic mindset has a tendency to look at the world as being made up of actions and processes, whereas a more object-based mindset such as our own sees the world as being made up of things and forms.

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Post by jburke »

Dudicon wrote:
Jaaaaaa wrote:I thought of an interesting (please tell me if it's wrong!) way of looking at it: consider that time is a space-dimension like the other three. "Nouns", or at least the ones that denote physical objects, refer to things that take up three-dimensional space, while "verbs" have the added dimension of time, while at the same time (no pun intended!) blurring exactly what the physical makeup is. Or something. I dunno, I just thought of it at school when I was bored. Can anyone tell me how close to being right I am?
Except that the whole point is that what's considered an "action" and what's considered a "thing" isn't universal, and varies greatly in the specifics and in the broader picture across cultures. The kinesthetic mindset has a tendency to look at the world as being made up of actions and processes, whereas a more object-based mindset such as our own sees the world as being made up of things and forms.
Thing of the gulf between the two worldviews as being caused by what each culture is conditioned to pay attention to most: what a thing is vs. what a thing does.

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

How do handle words for plants? They tend to stand still. That seems to make verb based words hard to use.
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Post by Mecislau »

I'm no expert on Native American languages, but couldn't you do something like "it-grows-tall" or "it-grows-greeningly" for trees or something? Just extend on its main characteristic.

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

I'm no expert on Native American languages, but couldn't you do something like "it-grows-tall" or "it-grows-greeningly" for trees or something? Just extend on its main characteristic.
How do you distinguish between tree species? They all act the same.
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Post by Mecislau »

Eddy the Great wrote:
I'm no expert on Native American languages, but couldn't you do something like "it-grows-tall" or "it-grows-greeningly" for trees or something? Just extend on its main characteristic.
How do you distinguish between tree species? They all act the same.
Redwood: it-grows-(very)-tall
Oak: it-grows-tall-and-changes-colors
Pine: it-grows-tall-and-(does not)-change-colors
Maple: it-grows-tall-and-sweet

Something like those.

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Post by Shinali Sishi »

Eddy the Great wrote:
I'm no expert on Native American languages, but couldn't you do something like "it-grows-tall" or "it-grows-greeningly" for trees or something? Just extend on its main characteristic.
How do you distinguish between tree species? They all act the same.
Well, an evergreen would involve it not changing
a deciduous my describe the leaves or the color
some trees are bigger and others are smaller, they have different col0red trunks and different hardness woods
certain trees are famous for their flowers (dogwood, cherry, magnolia, etc.)
Now you get to ponder how to make those fit your conlang! :mrgreen:
Last edited by Shinali Sishi on Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by doctrellor »

You could differentiate between leaves, or bark color, style,

kind of like telling the difference between a Weeping Willow, and an Oak tree

we can see major differences, I would imagine your poly lang would do something to "specialize" the differences

For Drem, a weeping willow is based off of crying + water ( since it looks like it's crying, and lives by water), While an Oak is thick and strong, so I based it off of warrior. a Tall tree like a Pine tree, I based off of Tall, and spear ( from the pine needles)

so for me it is just another "Descriptor block" being an affix
Nilikuonyesha nyota (mwezi) na uliangalia kidole tu.
I pointed out to you the stars (the moon) and all you saw was the tip of my finger.

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

I could take bark texture into account as well given the kinestisia of many polylangs that I've been adding to my conlang.
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Post by Soap »

How about using passive constructions for some of them? e.g. "a ______ eats it" or "the ______ live in it" ....?
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Post by Aurora Rossa »

How about using passive constructions for some of them? e.g. "a ______ eats it" or "the ______ live in it" ....?
I used it the word for language. That's not a bad idea.
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Post by Glenn »

And don't forget about metaphors: a slender tree that sways in the breeze, like an aspen, could be named by a verbal phrase describing it as a dancer; an oak tree (as in doctrellor's example) as a warrior; a fruit tree like an apple as a "giver of gifts".

There might be tales or legends connected to certain kinds of trees that give them their names--as the perch for a legendary animal-hero or human figure ("Coyote-perched-there", incorporating the initial form of the name/phrase "Coyote"), as a participant in an event (like the Welsh tale of Cad Goddeu (sp?), the Battle of the Trees), or a tale explaining why a specific tree is the way it is (the hawthorn is said to have grown thorns to ward off a particular enemy, etc.). Let you imagination run free. :wink:

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Post by jburke »

Glenn Kempf wrote:And don't forget about metaphors: a slender tree that sways in the breeze, like an aspen, could be named by a verbal phrase describing it as a dancer; an oak tree (as in doctrellor's example) as a warrior; a fruit tree like an apple as a "giver of gifts".

There might be tales or legends connected to certain kinds of trees that give them their names--as the perch for a legendary animal-hero or human figure ("Coyote-perched-there", incorporating the initial form of the name/phrase "Coyote"), as a participant in an event (like the Welsh tale of Cad Goddeu (sp?), the Battle of the Trees), or a tale explaining why a specific tree is the way it is (the hawthorn is said to have grown thorns to ward off a particular enemy, etc.). Let you imagination run free. :wink:

p@,
Glenn
You must have Indian blood in you, Glenn. :) I can think of natlang examples of almost all of those.

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

And don't forget about metaphors: a slender tree that sways in the breeze, like an aspen, could be named by a verbal phrase describing it as a dancer; an oak tree (as in doctrellor's example) as a warrior; a fruit tree like an apple as a "giver of gifts".

There might be tales or legends connected to certain kinds of trees that give them their names--as the perch for a legendary animal-hero or human figure ("Coyote-perched-there", incorporating the initial form of the name/phrase "Coyote"), as a participant in an event (like the Welsh tale of Cad Goddeu (sp?), the Battle of the Trees), or a tale explaining why a specific tree is the way it is (the hawthorn is said to have grown thorns to ward off a particular enemy, etc.). Let you imagination run free.
Brilliant. The people in Terra Pvlchra have a surprising number of tales and such. Given that I translated a monster sighting, that would be a good word for a tree species(the-monsters-live-in-it).
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Post by Mecislau »

How do/you speculate more nominal-centered polysynthetic languages function? Would they be centered on a highly-inflected noun or something like that? With the verb marked on the noun?

Something like this:

"I built a tall building"

becomes

build[past]-I building-tallness


Does that make sense? Or should it be more inflected?

I'm just playing with the idea....

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

I suspect that it would be like this.

I(noun)-it-buildgender-past tall-building build.

You could have the choice of verb noun incorporation and object incorporation as well, so it becomes:

I(noun)-it-build.gender-past-tall-building-build.

Say that I was t'eko, a 3rd person inanimate object is -ksi, the verb build's "gender" is -p'e, past tense is -tfa, tall is mnafe-, building is t'a, and build is kfo. Thus:

T'ekoksip'etfamnafet'akfo
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Post by Soap »

Well, I think Xap 5 is borderline poly, and it's definitely a nominal-based language, so here's my input:

I built a tall building.

xaapa = building
aputiapa = tall
to build = xa (at least for this kind of build)
I = aa
PAST TENSE = tata

tata aaxa axaapa xaaputiapa. Now thats just the child's language ... extended mode would treat the entire sentence except for the past tense marker as a single word (maybe it is a verbal lang after all?), resulting in this:

-āssāpāputiapa-. This needs a prefix (alu-) to mark the noun class (human being ... (the "I" is actually incorporated into the verb, but even so the noun class has to be marked on every word)) and a suffix to mark the tense. I havent worked out the suffixes yet. Also, I will likely make a rule that the person has to be indicated again in the suffix, even though it is already declared in the body of the word itself.
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Post by Soap »

What I didnt mention was that some of those morphemes are themselves little mini-sentences. aputiapa is just a stolen sentence from Moonshine meaning "the older womann claims she is taller than the younger boy" (this language was going to be the SpeedTalk to end all SpeedTalks). It seems strange to use a sentence as a noun, but Xap speakers are used to doing things like that. This is a bad example because the Xap speakers wouldnt know what those original morphemes meant. I don't have any better examples to show because I am just now in the process of creating these mini-sentence nouns. I might get tired of the idea and throw it away, but for now it's interesting and it gives me a reason to require that extended mode Xap words have a minimum of 5 syllables. It may or may not be polysyntheticism, but it's something interesting for me.
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Post by Glenn »

jburke wrote:You must have Indian blood in you, Glenn. :) I can think of natlang examples of almost all of those.
I'll take that as a major compliment, especially coming from you, Jeff. :mrgreen:
(No Indian blood whatsoever, but I do my best.)

I was probably unconsciously channeling some natlang examples in my previous message (such as the aspen dancer), and the reference to Cad Goddeu is, of course, a conscious one, but in general I was simply trying to shift away from bare material description to the realm of symbol, metaphor, and storytelling, since it opens up such a wide scope for imagination, depth, and beauty.
(Not that the "real world" isn't beautiful in and of itself 8) .)

p@,
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Post by Salmoneus »

I've got a nouny language which may be polysynthetic. Others in the (distant) family definately will be.

Mine incorporates the verb into the object, marks tense/mood on the subject, and has the object agree in gender with the subject. [To reassure Eddy: the genders are Red, Yellow and Blue]. Adjectives/adverbs modifying the object agree with the object's gender.

Eg, to use a modification of the Babel line, if we want to say "there may be too many living languages in the future", the translation would be:

Jastuŋa uatl jhtfervajhrzuj

Which breaks into
Jastu = world
-ŋ = future possiblitive
-a = ergative (though you can tell anyway, by the lack of agreement)

ua = life [diphtongs rare in this lang]
-t = adjectivizer
-l = Yellow (to agree with Vajhr)

jh- = excessive number
tfer- = to have
Vajhr = language
-z = tense agreement [all the tense/moods are in one of a number of "supertenses", which the object has to agree with. eg. future possiblitive and future optative are the same for agreement purposes]
-u = absolutive [yes, it marks both]
-j = Red (to agree with Jastu]

If there is no incorporated verb, the copula is assumed.

*feels guilty for talking about his conlangs*

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

My conlang also has verb compounding, like in Khoisan languages. This should have some interesting interactions with headmarking.
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Post by jburke »

Eddy the Great wrote:My conlang also has verb compounding, like in Khoisan languages. This should have some interesting interactions with headmarking.
The Iroquois languages also have verb compounding, with restictions.

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

The Iroquois languages also have verb compounding, with restictions.
That's interesting. Do you have some examples?
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