The Bible in Almea

[Shm Jay]

I am reading the Bible in four translations:

1. The good old Douai translation
2. The old King James translation (notice my subtle bias) which I am reading for literary purposes, but I actually like Douai better.
3. The Bible in Esperanto (everyone ooh and aaah here )
4. The New American Bible translation, which is the modern Catholic one. (If I knew which was the modern British translation, I would read it, too, because I am an Anglophile at heart.)

Not even Dr. Zamenhof could make the genealogies interesting, though at least the Esperanto text gives you a better idea of how the names are pronounced in Hebrew.

Anyway, I?m still only in Genesis. But I started to wonder how the Almeans look upon the Bible. Is it only read in the Cadhinorian plain, or has it been taken to other lands such as the Xurnese? Somehow I don?t think the Tzhurans would be much interested in it. (But did Allah cause a wandering Bedouin tribe to make the wrong turn around a sand dune and bring a copy of the Quran with them to the Karim Steppe Maybe if Zomp had been Muslim that would have happened.) Nor would the Gurdagans care for it, though they probably need it the most What are other peoples? opinions of the Bible?

How is the Bible read? It must be read quite differently there than it is here. I suspect that the historical books must be seldom read: they must seem rather pointless. Actually the whole Pentateuch must seem pointless not only because of the history, but because of the laws which forbid foods not found in Almea. The vision St. Peter had of all the animals where he was told nothing was unclean must give people the excuse not to pay any attention to the Pentateuch.

[Glenn]

I am reading the Bible in four translations:

1. The good old Douai translation

<snip>

I'm not familiar with that one; could you say a word or two about it?

How is the Bible read? It must be read quite differently there than it is here. I suspect that the historical books must be seldom read: they must seem rather pointless. Actually the whole Pentateuch must seem pointless not only because of the history, but because of the laws which forbid foods not found in Almea. The vision St. Peter had of all the animals where he was told nothing was unclean must give people the excuse not to pay any attention to the Pentateuch.

Mark has implied that the Old Testament was largely set aside in Almea, presumably because it was seen as applying primarily to Earth instead (in addition, there are no Jews in Almea that we know of). The main focus is on the New Testament (the Book of Eledhe), as well as the body of native Cuezi/Arashei writings, on the one hand, and the account of the Elenikoi's arrival and deeds, on the other (the Book of Mihel, named after the Elenikoi leader).

Your question is an intriguing one; I too would like to hear Mark's reply.

p@,
Glenn

[jburke]

Mark has implied that the Old Testament was largely set aside in Almea [...] The main focus is on the New Testament

How wise of them. I wonder if they have any idea how much grief they likely saved themselves?

[zompist]

Anyway, I?m still only in Genesis. But I started to wonder how the Almeans look upon the Bible. Is it only read in the Cadhinorian plain, or has it been taken to other lands such as the Xurnese?

The Xurnese are great exporters of their own religions; but they have no interest in those of other civilizations-- anything that's worthy of interest religiously or philosophically will have already been explored within the Axunaic sphere.

The Gurdagor have a similar attitude, but expand their area of interest to the Skourene and Axunaic regions. (And even that is an improvement over their earlier attitudes. They've been humbled a bit.)

The Jippirasti consider all other religions to be evil or misguided.

The only major Erel?ean civilizations that are interested in Cadhinorian religion and philosophy (and from their point of view Eledh?t is Cadhinorian) are the Skourenes proper (the Echendi) and the Nanese-- both maritime civilizations in frequent contact with Verduria and Kebri. The Nanese have gone so far as to translate the Adhivro and the Books of Eledh and Mihel. A small minority would find these quite interesting, possibly even a key to the vitality of the cultures of the Plain.

Of course both the Verdurians and the Kebreni attempt to spread their religions within their colonies. (There are thus areas of Arc?l and T?llinor that have actual Eledhi or even imitation Cadhinorian or Kebreni pagans.)

How is the Bible read? It must be read quite differently there than it is here. I suspect that the historical books must be seldom read: they must seem rather pointless. Actually the whole Pentateuch must seem pointless not only because of the history, but because of the laws which forbid foods not found in Almea. The vision St. Peter had of all the animals where he was told nothing was unclean must give people the excuse not to pay any attention to the Pentateuch.

Glenn's answer is correct-- the Old Testament is known, but not much read. It's too arcane and difficult-- who are these people and why should we care about them, especially when Iesu threw most of this stuff out anyway?

Some of the more accessible stories are known, however-- Dhav?d and Golyat, for instance, or Noy and his ark.

The animals are not really a problem, because the Elenicoi who translated the Bible simply chose an Almean equivalent-- hardly anyone even realizes that the animals and plants were different.

[Salmoneus]

The Douai is the old Catholic bible - the equivalent of the King James, I think. I'm not sure of the date, though.

[Salmoneus]

On further thought, I think that should read "the old Irish Catholic bible."
Though not "the Old Irish catholic bible". That would be somewhat different, I guess.

[Xephyr]

Wait a second, the Almeans know about, and have, the Bible!? How and why? How and why??

[So Haleza Grise]

Wait a second, the Almeans know about, and have, the Bible!? How and why? How and why??

Remember the Elenicoi?

[Mecislau]

Wait a second, the Almeans know about, and have, the Bible!? How and why? How and why??

...

The Elenicoi arrived in Av?la in 2780, bringing news of redemption. The starting point of their voyage was on our planet-- the Greeks left Arsinoe, Egypt, on a trading expedition, in AD 325; their preternatural transportation of their vessel to Almea is known as the Miracle of the Translation, and their doctrine would develop into the Av?lan Catholic Church (Adheton Naurondise i Av?la).

(Terrestrial and Almean humans, despite their great similarities, are not interfertile; the marriages of the Elenicoi and the locals were barren. Many of them adopted children, however, and many if not most Av?lans claim descent from these adoptive Elenicoi. The Greek language, however, died out, except for scholarship.)

The doctrines of the Elenicoi have by this time spread throughout Eretald and Sarn?e, finding a special attraction in the E?rdur valley, where an Arashei presence has remained since Cuzeian times. Many Arashei indeed hailed the appearance of the Elenicoi as a confirmation of ancient prophecies, and evidence of the present action of Eledh (Cuz. Ei:ledan). After some tension-- there were some who suspected a diabolic trap-- the Elenicoi accepted the identification, and at the Council of Av?la (2987) the two religions merged, under the name of Eledh?t.

Which, by the way, reminds me that I'd like to know if the Greek language underwent some changes before it died out on Almea?

[Aurora Rossa]

It must be some sort of concultural justification for there being a Verdurian Tower of Babbel text translation.

[Mecislau]

It must be some sort of concultural justification for there being a Verdurian Tower of Babbel text translation.

Nothing says you can only translate native texts

[Aurora Rossa]

Maybe he prefers to only do native texts, though.

[So Haleza Grise]

Maybe he prefers to only do native texts, though.

Well, why did he do a Lord of The Rings passage translation then?

Native texts are important, but familiar text translation is a great way to develop vocabulary and work out detailed phraseology - it's a great challenge to see if you can maintain the sense.

[Aurora Rossa]

I see. I do plan on translating Star Wars.

[Xephyr]

Where did he do a LoTR translation?

[Delthayre]

He translated a passage from the book as a Verdurian sample text.

Ihano Tolcien: So mashrom anelo?
Soa selta on neletne, er cechel, ne rha?n m?gui, ne ya S?rchiran, tekre C?pro, mlake sur ?claen, skichy er rhodedh?se, ac dhonde com tu ilet faitnere im dhum?.
--Sanno! kridne Tor.

Proshe C?pro bezhulne er sfahce cum yasnyan vu?n, ya cum vu?n mudhe yasnyan er mudhe guessen dy Tor ilet shrifcere ifkiam bruhan, er lialne ir caturon er ulgash?n Parene S?rei; glonyece imir zhof er letuem.

--Ai zdesy, mizhe. Ac nun rho diveu fasstao, kiom zhanmai fassec. Ci-mev?n et denomai. So Anelo e es?!-- Er sitrece, dezike ya ilet metne sur docha, islelne is leleen Torei. Tor h?yne, ac rho tence cairam krichen, prokena ci-piyan bolshe zhanne.

Shto t?vne Tor b?nece sur dos?n, imvalitne cruri li?, er ilet ledre cot?n; bem zi? syt?vne so dhumetem pol, dezike shoruan eidolo neletnu ir ilun. Barucre dhonde, er piyulan fs? sicha fue mlake.

Er ly? ret, dezike C?pro imuverne so Anelam er b?zce pro ilun, ya im Sammath-Naur?n, so uem nazhei zi?, so Gu?s Barad-d?rei frisre, er so Gorat skichre er ne polfond?n zi? er ne cistilan zi? org?lsen er embren. So Shoruan Mashrom ilet ulelne sitrece, er soa Y? zi? ke prozne shi-umbrem rihne tra etald?n so dher ket urokree, er so est?t niruis?tei li? tu ilun dekashre im sfesh? n deyeec?n, er soem kensem vraki? zi? shekeshan lelne polnem. Proshe ktudh li? sicha tshurne im ogon?n imbrurhec?n, ac nkash li? lialne com nizh?n noroum?n er mlaken ilun gagan. Prokena shrifce so shushtan? muyam im kt?n esne, er so fil kt?i so s?r zi? forhne.

Is shi-gu?zzovem er gechem li? nkashei er traese, is shi-kensem er belgom leria li? bodhne rhisat?n, er fsa so?n nazh?n li? zhanne friseo. Basom? li? dubr?, er falat? li? keshnu, er alchiroi li?, sitrece sam dus?n ni vulein, cierceynu er chasishshelcu. Prokena cam ublinere. So? per? leria er namer?t soei Gu?sei ke cam clasmire nun surchelnu cum imnizhnyan vyozhan eta soa Parna. She vocet?n li?, orivnu cum shciecan krichan, im dern?n sankusen dhiec?n sicha letnu, mudhe rurhece dy so dhac?, so? Nazg?l?, so? Anelofant?, er cum orazh ozhri? zam fezhr? er?n Parnan S?rei.

[Glenn]

It must be some sort of concultural justification for there being a Verdurian Tower of Babbel text translation.

I would say that it's quite a bit more than that; the phenomenon of the Eledhat religion (and its relationship to both Christianity and the native Almean Cuzeian monotheism (Arashei)) is an integral and fairly well elaborated part of Verdurian history, with a good bit of work behind it--it's more than just a simple excuse for a Babel text.

(I also strongly suspect that Mark added it before online conlangery and the use of Babel texts became such a popular pastime--Verduria predates the World Wide Web, after all.)

IIRC, Mark has said previously that he included Eledhat early in the creation of Almea, but that he probably wouldn't have mixed in Earth elements if he did it over again now.

Nevertheless, as I've said before, I think that the tale of the Elenicoi's arrival and their involvement in Erenat's war of independence against Kebri would make excellent material for a novel.

***
I might note that Mark and other people (including Philip Newton and John Minot, I believe) have done Verdurian translations of both Earthly texts (including the Bible and LOTR, but not only) and native Verdurian ones--Mark has given us excerpts from folk tales, plays, novels, and works of philosophy, among others.

p@,
Glenn

[Glenn]

Which, by the way, reminds me that I'd like to know if the Greek language underwent some changes before it died out on Almea?

This is an interesting question indeed--we know that many Greek names (primarily Biblical) were adopted into Verdurian, but not how widely the language was used otherwise--nor for how long. Was there a practice of preserving the Greek originals of Biblical writings and liturgy, or was the use of Verdurian the general rule? If rituals spoken in Greek were used, I could see them becoming "Verdurianized."

p@,
Glenn

[CountJordan]

What is Eledhat?

[Glenn]

What is Eledhat?

Eledhat is the Verdurian name for a religion in Verduria that combines Christianity (as practiced in the fourth century, and introduced by the Elenicoi, who were originally from our Earth), with a native Almean religion, Arashei, descended from the faith of the ancient Cuzeians. It is fairly widespread in "present-day" Verduria and its neighbors, although it is a majority religion in only a few areas.

The extracts from the Historical Atlas above give a rundown on the early history of Eledhat, and there is more info about it in the Atlas, in some of Mark's posts on this board and the previous one, and elsewhere. For a look at the prehistory of Arashei, a description of Cuzeian monotheism is provided in the Religions of Almea section, and the "Book of Years" is a Cuzeian text still read by present-day followers of the faith.

[Mark's novel "In the Land of Babblers" evidently has more on the Cuzeian and Cadhinor religions, but we'll have to wait until it hits the bookstores... ]

Note: There are some professional fantasy authors who have included Christianity or other Earth religions in their settings (Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books, for instance) or created fantasy versions of them (Guy Gavriel Kay is an example here). (Writers of historical fantasy nearly always do so, of course, often with "pro" or "con" axes to grind). Mark's own version, with a blending of Earthly and native faiths, is one of the more original takes on the topic that I've seen.

p@,
Glenn

[zompist]

Which, by the way, reminds me that I'd like to know if the Greek language underwent some changes before it died out on Almea?

This is an interesting question indeed--we know that many Greek names (primarily Biblical) were adopted into Verdurian, but not how widely the language was used otherwise--nor for how long. Was there a practice of preserving the Greek originals of Biblical writings and liturgy, or was the use of Verdurian the general rule? If rituals spoken in Greek were used, I could see them becoming "Verdurianized."

The language basically died out as a spoken language with the Elenicoi. They did teach it to their adopted children and to others in the church, and it has survived as a language of scholarship... however, since the Almeans don't have other Greek literature to compare it with, there isn't that much insight to be gained from it.

The mass is celebrated in Old Verdurian (with modern pronunciation); there are a few Greek phrases left in.

[Shm Jay]

I'm not familiar with that one; could you say a word or two about it?

Off the top of my head, which might be wrong, it was the official Catholic English translation until relatively recently, and was a translation from the Vulgate by Catholic scholars in the English Catholic colleges in Douai and Rheims, France about the time of the King James version. I think the O.T. was done in Rheims and the N.T. in Douai. It was revised a bit by a Bishop Challoner in the 18th century, and a bit more in the mid 20th. The New American Bible became the official translation in the US (in the sense of being quoted in the Mass) when it was published about 1970; I don?t know what?s the official translation in the UK, I think it?s the Jerusalem Bible.

[Shm Jay]

The Xurnese are great exporters of their own religions; but they have no interest in those of other civilizations-- anything that's worthy of interest religiously or philosophically will have already been explored within the Axunaic sphere.

Hmmph, reminds me of a certain people known in Esperanto as the Usonanoj

Glenn's answer is correct-- the Old Testament is known, but not much read. It's too arcane and difficult-- who are these people and why should we care about them, especially when Iesu threw most of this stuff out anyway?

About the only thing that must be read are the Psalms and Proverbs. The Eledhat Bible must be quite similar to those little pocket New Testaments the Gideons hand out. Certainly Acts must be skipped over (who are the Romans?), and what about Revelation?

[Mecislau]

The Xurnese are great exporters of their own religions; but they have no interest in those of other civilizations-- anything that's worthy of interest religiously or philosophically will have already been explored within the Axunaic sphere.

Hmmph, reminds me of a certain people known in Esperanto as the Usonanoj

lol

[Rory]

Genesis is very important - well, the first few chapters at least. Likewise are the prophetic books such as Daniel.

I didn't know the Almeans had the Bible (my knowledge of Almea is restricted to the languages, tbh). This poses some interesting questions on interpretation of scripture - for example, who created Almea? Why is it not mentioned in the bible? When "heaven and earth" are made anew, what happens to Almea?

And how did the Greeks integrate themselves without any wars or battles breaking out?